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    (Original post by loppy_lou)
    I think its a good idea but why should just school leavers get £30 a week. All students should get some money as well. Not all students have a job while in college. I find it hard getting through without earning money. Whereas school leavers will spend money on things like clothes, CD's annd credit of their phones etc. Whereas other students need to pay rent and food cos their parents dont give them anything.
    I just think the government hasnt thought it throught properly. They should give money to all not just school leavers. Who says that it will work.
    But that's never going to happen, the gov don't have enough money to give funds to every student.
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    I don't know which LEAs will pay out if you don't have 100% attendance but Manchester isn't one of them. I cannot miss one single lesson. The bonus payments are also heavily linked to behaviour and attendance, for example, I won't be receiving EMA not just for one week, but for about 4 because I missed a few physics lessons one week. Similarly I will not be receiving the easter bonus for the same reason. Similarly, if I do not meet my university offer grades, I will not receive my final bonus.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    But that's never going to happen, the gov don't have enough money to give funds to every student.
    Anything is possible... they could just up the taxes if they really wanted to
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I don't know which LEAs will pay out if you don't have 100% attendance but Manchester isn't one of them. I cannot miss one single lesson. The bonus payments are also heavily linked to behaviour and attendance, for example, I won't be receiving EMA not just for one week, but for about 4 because I missed a few physics lessons one week. Similarly I will not be receiving the easter bonus for the same reason. Similarly, if I do not meet my university offer grades, I will not receive my final bonus.
    But if you attend every lesson, but don't achive well you'd still receive the money for ech week (just without bonuses) wouldn't you?
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    (Original post by benm)
    Apprenticeships, a reduction of the welfare state, and stricter controls to minimise abuse of the welfare state.
    How do you proprose we encourage people to take up apprenticeships? It's the exact same problem as how do we encourage people to goto college?

    How would a reduction of the welfare state encourage people to get further/higher education? You have some stereotyped view that when they leave school on the last day of term, they either walk straight to enrollment at sixth form, or the local dole office?
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    But that's never going to happen, the gov don't have enough money to give funds to every student.
    Well they should stop wasting it on rubbish that we dont need then there would be enought money.
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    (Original post by loppy_lou)
    Well they should stop wasting it on rubbish that we dont need then there would be enought money.
    ANd handing out money to every student in an attempt to get them to stay on in FE is a good way to spend the funds??? There are a fair few people in FE now that didn't need the extra money as an incentive.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    But if you attend every lesson, but don't achive well you'd still receive the money for ech week (just without bonuses) wouldn't you?
    Yes. Except that doesn't happen in my college at least, because they just kick you out if you're not achieving. My college does not only have one of the best increases between GCSE and Alevel in the country (top 1% => they're very good at raising standards), but they also have more EMA students than anywhere else in the country.

    If you're going to argue that EMA is being wasted on people who do not benefit very much from FE, then that's a criticism of the actual courses, not a criticism of the EMA system.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Yes. Except that doesn't happen in my college at least, because they just kick you out if you're not achieving. My college does not only have one of the best increases between GCSE and Alevel in the country (top 1% => they're very good at raising standards), but they also have more EMA students than anywhere else in the country.

    If you're going to argue that EMA is being wasted on people who do not benefit very much from FE, then that's a criticism of the actual courses, not a criticism of the EMA system.
    On the contrary, it's absolutely a criticism of the EMA system. You can't blame it on the courses as it's the LEAs which allocate the EMA to students in particular courses, it's up to them who they give it to, and I think in some cases it's being given to the wrong people. It's great that it's working out so well at your college, but you have to admit there are flaws in the scheme that leave it open to exploitation.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    On the contrary, it's absolutely a criticism of the EMA system. You can't blame it on the courses as it's the LEAs which allocate the EMA to students in particular courses, it's up to them who they give it to, and I think in some cases it's being given to the wrong people. It's great that it's working out so well at your college, but you have to admit there are flaws in the scheme that leave it open to exploitation.
    Do you agree that as a modern economy which needs a flexible labour force, we need to ensure that most if not all of our young people have skills and knowledge which is taught post GCSE? Inward investment is just not going to happen unless we keep up with the rest of the world, where this is standard. Firms are not looking for people who can mindlessly sew together a pair of jeans, or glue something onto a circuit board anymore. The third world is there for that.

    So we come to the point where the government wants more people to stop leaving school and going into full time employment, and instead, go and get training and education first. So the first option is Alevels, EMA works quite well on this basis because of the nature of the student who studies Alevels. Another option is something like a BTEC, or one of those level2/3 combination courses. Students in these courses aren't able to hack Alevels, but they still need to gain skills and education.

    So to respond to your actual point. The LEA needs to be pushing students onto some kind of FE, if they can't hack Alevels this is the only other obvious route. Criticise these crappy courses then, ensure that they're doing something worthwhile in these courses. Don't criticise the method of getting people into FE, unless you can think of a more successful one. Because ultimately, getting people into FE is not just an inherently good thing, it's absolutely vital if we want to maintain our status as a developed country with one of the most flexible labour markets in the world.
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    But what I'm saying is, if people have to be paid to motivate them into staying in FE, then are they really going to enter into it fully, learn skills and better the economy in the future? Or are they just going to go through the motions to get some easy money week on week, and then at the end of the day, still not be educated to that level that you're saying all the young people should be at?
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    But what I'm saying is, if people have to be paid to motivate them into staying in FE, then are they really going to enter into it fully, learn skills and better the economy in the future? Or are they just going to go through the motions to get some easy money week on week, and then at the end of the day, still not be educated to that level that you're saying all the young people should be at?
    Yes I think they will to an extent. Because it's very hard to not learn *anything* when you're in a class which is run effectively. If the student is present, and is learning enough to pass the assessment which allows them to stay in the class, then they're probably making it worthwhile. If the course allows them to nod off and not really learn anything, then it's a crap course.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Yes I think they will to an extent. Because it's very hard to not learn *anything* when you're in a class which is run effectively. If the student is present, and is learning enough to pass the assessment which allows them to stay in the class, then they're probably making it worthwhile. If the course allows them to nod off and not really learn anything, then it's a crap course.
    But surely's its the LEA's job to decide which courses are appropriate, and only give the EMA to those in courses such as yours, where you have to pass assessments to stay on the course?
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    Don't know if I'm breaking the discussion or mentioning anything which has already been mentioned.

    It isn't fair that one person does not have to work and can spend all their time studying hard because they do not have to get a job. This too also applies to university. I know that this isn't the case for all, because they can have some tight parents or do not wish to rely on them... but I'm guessing this is rarer and money will always be avaliable. £30 (and I'll add that not many people actually get the full amount) isn't really that much anyway and will probably still require the person to work, so they don't get it easy.

    By not having it, I'm pretty sure that the top achievers who are not from rich backgrounds wouldn't get the top grades and thus making the rich and poor divide bigger.

    Not only for these people, but are you aware of the amount of people who twenty years ago would've gone straight into a job? Now they are going to college, training to be nurses and our manual jobs (which as I'm aware the family allowance and the EMA is avaliable) and this is a big incentive.
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    (Original post by Ellie4)
    But surely's its the LEA's job to decide which courses are appropriate, and only give the EMA to those in courses such as yours, where you have to pass assessments to stay on the course?
    Yes. But I don't think this is as big a problem as you imagine it to be. Because there are no EMA courses eligble for EMA which don't include some kind of assessment. Though I agree that in some courses, it's arbitary.

    I think we've come to an agreement, EMA is effective in encouraging people to gain skills and qualifications required in the economy of today. But in certain situations, the courses being studied by students on EMA are inappropriate and ineffective.
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    What really annoys me with EMA is the way they are advertising it. When I went to college I got nothing, however I wanted to be there and do well, so I did.

    The take up rate a for GNVQ Foundation I.T increased by 80% at MANCAT (my old college) when EMA was introduced.

    However most of these people failed as they were not motivated etc. The college fiddled things so people often got EMA if they missed lectures.

    Also GNVQ Foundation in many aspects is not economical, while its better these students are not claiming the dole the qualifcation in itself is probably worthless.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I think we've come to an agreement, EMA is effective in encouraging people to gain skills and qualifications required in the economy of today. But in certain situations, the courses being studied by students on EMA are inappropriate and ineffective.
    Agreed Good debating with you!
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    What really annoys me with EMA is the way they are advertising it. When I went to college I got nothing, however I wanted to be there and do well, so I did.

    The take up rate a for GNVQ Foundation I.T increased by 80% at MANCAT (my old college) when EMA was introduced.

    However most of these people failed as they were not motivated etc. The college fiddled things so people often got EMA if they missed lectures.

    Also GNVQ Foundation in many aspects is not economical, while its better these students are not claiming the dole the qualifcation in itself is probably worthless.
    But because you can get the money from 16-19, those who pass are unlikely to go straight into work when there are £30 per week avaliable per week and are liekly to do more courses.

    It isn't as easy to get as people make out like the dole, you've got to attend everything and you must make progress otherwise you don't get **** all.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    What really annoys me with EMA is the way they are advertising it. When I went to college I got nothing, however I wanted to be there and do well, so I did.

    The take up rate a for GNVQ Foundation I.T increased by 80% at MANCAT (my old college) when EMA was introduced.

    However most of these people failed as they were not motivated etc. The college fiddled things so people often got EMA if they missed lectures.

    Also GNVQ Foundation in many aspects is not economical, while its better these students are not claiming the dole the qualifcation in itself is probably worthless.
    Many people seem to find this idea of "we'll pay you to not goto work but study instead" pretty disgusting. But as I said earlier, it's just one of many ways the government trys to play with demand for merit/demerit goods. (e.g. raising the price of cigarettes 500%). It's cynical but effective.

    The college fiddling things, and well, allowing them to continue despite failing is crap. And I agree this is probably past the limit for me in public sector bureaucracy.

    Crap courses, crap colleges, undermining an otherwise very successful system.
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    But because you can get the money from 16-19, those who pass are unlikely to go straight into work when there are £30 per week avaliable per week and are liekly to do more courses.

    It isn't as easy to get as people make out like the dole, you've got to attend everything and you must make progress otherwise you don't get **** all.
    I guess as longs as they do have to attend etc then its not a problem. I still think its false econemy to pay for people to do GNVQ Foundation though. Modern Appcreciships would surely be much better and more relevent.

    I really don't know why more young people don't take this route. However I did one for three weeks and found it a waste of time. NVQ IT Level 2 which was forced to do, was easier than Year 7 Science and the job itself was so boring.

    I got paid £70 a week as well. I get paid that just for working 10 hours a week now.

    I think the EMA should be a busery still the paid the same etc, but just marketed differently. It should be a grant to help you with your studies, not payment to do education which is how the government are marketing it.
 
 
 
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