Education Maintenance Allowance

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Ellie4
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#101
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#101
(Original post by fishpaste)
This would make it very hard for people who wanted to study a subject at university though. If you wanted to do medicine, you're going to be studying two more sciences probably on top of that lot. If you wanted to do maths you're going to be study further maths on top of that lot.

Apart from that, I quite like your idea. I'm very fond of the liberal american education system. I think it works very well.
Yeah, there's obviously problems with the idea that would have to be worked out, but I think the level of knowledge in maths and languages especially tends to let our country down. An individual can get a C in GCSE maths (on an intermediate paper this requires only very basic knowledge) and still get into university. The idea of the US where you specialise in your second(?) year at uni definately has its merits.
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AT82
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#102
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#102
I got a D in maths and still got into university....
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fishpaste
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#103
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#103
(Original post by me!)
Excuse me have you been to a low achieving state school and sat through lessons for five years? The problems are not being delt with and keeping kids there who don't want to learn, don't learn anyway they just disrupt lessons, other students and teachers...
Yes I have. And I honestly believe that these people are better in the classroom than on the streets, or even in 3rd world jobs. There's no law which says that disruptive pupils have to effect the education of the willing, it's not impossible for schools to deal with these problems.
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AT82
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#104
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#104
(Original post by me!)
Excuse me have you been to a low achieving state school and sat through lessons for five years? The problems are not being delt with and keeping kids there who don't want to learn, don't learn anyway they just disrupt lessons, other students and teachers...
Yeah thats pretty much like my school was. The teachers didn't have much time to teach, they were too busy trying to stop fights.
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Ellie4
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#105
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#105
(Original post by amazingtrade)
I got a D in maths and still got into university....
Well I stand corrected then. But I think people should have to have a higher rate of numercay before they procede with HE, the education system is failing to deliver many of the basic skills.
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AT82
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#106
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#106
(Original post by Ellie4)
Well I stand corrected then. But I think people should have to have a higher rate of numercay before they procede with HE, the education system is failing to deliver many of the basic skills.
Yeah but this is often not the fault of the indviduals. There is quite a bit of maths on my course especialy in Java and C++ programming and I don't struggle with it.

As longs as you're not studying maths or some kind of engineering then I don't see how its too much of a problem esepecialy if that persons other grades are good.

Some people just find maths extremely difficult but can still be very accademicaly minded and do well in HE and in a job.
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fishpaste
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#107
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#107
(Original post by Ellie4)
Yeah, there's obviously problems with the idea that would have to be worked out, but I think the level of knowledge in maths and languages especially tends to let our country down. An individual can get a C in GCSE maths (on an intermediate paper this requires only very basic knowledge) and still get into university. The idea of the US where you specialise in your second(?) year at uni definately has its merits.
Hm yes, I really wouldn't personally mind which system we used. And I think they both have very different but pretty much equal advantages. I like the fact that having taken maths and further maths to A2, I have an ability in maths comparable to a second year undergraduate in some US universities. But at the same time, it'd be great if I had a much better knowledge of English and French. I can barely remember any English, and whilst I remember quite alot of French GCSE, it wouldn't get me very far in Europe (if anywhere.) So yes I think you're right on this front.

The IB seems to tackle this well, it seems to include the depth of further maths A2, but the continuation of all core subjects.
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me!
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#108
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#108
(Original post by fishpaste)
Yes I have. And I honestly believe that these people are better in the classroom than on the streets, or even in 3rd world jobs. There's no law which says that disruptive pupils have to effect the education of the willing, it's not impossible for schools to deal with these problems.
There may be no law that says it but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it does believe me. I could give you many examples of lessons where I haven't learnt a thing and I haven't really learnt much at school for the past five years, the teachers are busy trying to get the disruptive kids to settle down or sending them for emergency discipline.

You obviously haven't been to a school like mine and seen what I have if you honestly believe that what you say is true.
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Ellie4
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#109
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#109
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yeah but this is often not the fault of the indviduals. There is quite a bit of maths on my course especialy in Java and C++ programming and I don't struggle with it.

As longs as you're not studying maths or some kind of engineering then I don't see how its too much of a problem esepecialy if that persons other grades are good.

Some people just find maths extremely difficult but can still be very accademicaly minded and do well in HE and in a job.
But in my economics class (AS level) there is some very very basic maths involved in the course (percentage changes etc) and there are some people in my class who struggle with these questions, despite getting A's and B's in their maths GCSE. Surely this shows there's a problem with the system?
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andy_
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#110
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#110
I think there won't be many people that would decide to study just to take advantage of an 'easy' £30. You still have to do the work and turn up to lessons. Easier to just get a job and you can earn more instead of lessons.
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AT82
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#111
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#111
(Original post by Ellie4)
But in my economics class (AS level) there is some very very basic maths involved in the course (percentage changes etc) and there are some people in my class who struggle with these questions, despite getting A's and B's in their maths GCSE. Surely this shows there's a problem with the system?
Yep especialy as I can do stuff like percentages pretty easily. The problem is when I did my GCSEs I was not aware of cylabuses, I didn't know you could get hold of them and revise from that. We where tuaght the subject and not how to pass the exams, a lot of schools seem to just teach you how to pass the exams.


What I do struggle with in maths is stuff like equations, long division etc. My sister got a A in her P2 exam and she can't even do long division.
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fishpaste
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#112
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#112
(Original post by me!)
There may be no law that says it but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and it does believe me. I could give you many examples of lessons where I haven't learnt a thing and I haven't really learnt much at school for the past five years, the teachers are busy trying to get the disruptive kids to settle down or sending them for emergency discipline.

You obviously haven't been to a school like mine and seen what I have if you honestly believe that what you say is true.
In regard to your last sentence, I think I've probably been to a school worse than yours, and I do honestly believe what I say.

I think it's silly to just accept that unwilling pupils will always be able to disrupt a class. I just think schools fail to effectively discipline them.
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Ellie4
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#113
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#113
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yep especialy as I can do stuff like percentages pretty easily. The problem is when I did my GCSEs I was not aware of cylabuses, I didn't know you could get hold of them and revise from that. We where tuaght the subject and not how to pass the exams, a lot of schools seem to just teach you how to pass the exams.


What I do struggle with in maths is stuff like equations, long division etc. My sister got a A in her P2 exam and she can't even do long division.
Yep. You can achieve in exams if you know how to pass the exams, and what sort of answers the examiners are looking for. I did GCSE chemistry, physics etc etc, if you asked me to do any of the paper now, I think I'd find it incredibly difficult, even though I got A* in double science. We're not creating a society of more intellegent people, but of people who know how to pass specific exams, and how that's going to help our country in the future, I'll never know.
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fishpaste
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#114
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#114
(Original post by amazingtrade)
What I do struggle with in maths is stuff like equations, long division etc. My sister got a A in her P2 exam and she can't even do long division.
I have an offer to study maths at Cambridge and *I* can't do long division
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AT82
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#115
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#115
(Original post by fishpaste)
I have an offer to study maths at Cambridge and *I* can't do long division
This is quite frightening really (I know this is not your fault) its the systems. I think the problem with maths in particular is that the primary schools assume the secondary schools teach it and the secondary schools think the primary schools would have taught it.

We just touched on long divsion in primary school. I think a teaching in primrary schools in the 1980's ealry 1990's was very poor. It is supposed to be getting better now but thats a late for our generation.
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me!
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#116
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#116
(Original post by amazingtrade)
This is quite frightening really (I know this is not your fault) its the systems. I think the problem with maths in particular is that the primary schools assume the secondary schools teach it and the secondary schools think the primary schools would have taught it.

We just touched on long divsion in primary school. I think a teaching in primrary schools in the 1980's ealry 1990's was very poor. It is supposed to be getting better now but thats a late for our generation.
My primary school taught me long division in year 5.
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fishpaste
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#117
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#117
(Original post by amazingtrade)
This is quite frightening really (I know this is not your fault) its the systems. I think the problem with maths in particular is that the primary schools assume the secondary schools teach it and the secondary schools think the primary schools would have taught it.

We just touched on long divsion in primary school. I think a teaching in primrary schools in the 1980's ealry 1990's was very poor. It is supposed to be getting better now but thats a late for our generation.
It is quite frightening. Especially given that I can do algebraic long division which you'd imagine to be much harder. I'm sure if somebody put a gun to my head and said "do long division!" I could probably fathom it from my knowledge of algebraic long division.

I agree with everything else you've said.
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LH
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#118
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#118
(Original post by me!)
My primary school taught me long division in year 5.
We did long division in year 3
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me!
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#119
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#119
(Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
We did long division in year 3

I read the entire Gay Way series in year 2...
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benm
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#120
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#120
(Original post by fishpaste)
How do you proprose we encourage people to take up apprenticeships? It's the exact same problem as how do we encourage people to goto college?
Well, not by paying then, that's for sure. Some students will simply not benefit much by going to college or university, the government should work towards encouraging those students to go on modern appreticeship courses rather than imply that going to university is the 'normal' thing to do.

If someone is not motivated enough to go to college for the benefit of learning and gaining qualifications, then EMA won't suddenly motivate them towards these aims, they will simply be motivated towards recieving their payments.

(Original post by fishpaste)
How would a reduction of the welfare state encourage people to get further/higher education? You have some stereotyped view that when they leave school on the last day of term, they either walk straight to enrollment at sixth form, or the local dole office?
If someone is unemployed and is having difficulty working, it would become easier for them to increase their employability by entering a modern apprenticeship course than it would be to convince social services that they deserve unemployment benefits.
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