Liberals against Islam, UNITE!

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KingBradly
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#1
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I think it's time that us liberals who heartily dislike Islam started making it clear that NO, disliking Islam does not mean you are an EDL supporting Daily Mail reading moron. Islam is about as much of an antithesis to liberalism as it gets, and any liberal defense of Islam is pure cognitive dissonance. People assume that defending Islam is liberal because it is right-on at the moment to defend it in newspapers such as The Independent and The Guardian. The Guardian does NOT represent the entirety of liberalism.

The Guardian supports a warped kind of liberalism for the kind of people who think Mumford and Sons are "wholesome", Miranda is "heartwarming", and criticize The Sun because it has boobies in it whilst claiming itself to be a "family newspaper", as if the most damaging thing for a child to see in a document filled with the prostitution of horrific tragedies is a pair of knockers. They are, essentially, puritans who use liberalism as their moral ground as it happens to be the highest one around at the moment.

These people do not represent ALL of liberalism. Individuals such as Hunter Thompson, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Bill Hicks, and Ken Kesey are all different in there own way, all miles away from today's Guardianistas, and all most definitely liberals. They also were all avidly against puritanism.

Islam is a particularly noxious brand of puritanism. It fits with liberalism about as well as Nazism fits with Woodstock. Let's not accuse 'liberalism' of apologizing for Islam.
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thesabbath
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You're trying to have your cake and eat it. For years people emblazoning themselves with buzzwords like "liberal" and "tolerant" have been demonising those who have spoken out against the Islamification of the West as "racists", "Islamophobes", "Nazis", "bigots", "DM readers" and so forth. Now the chickens the nasty people were warning you about have come home to roost, you're concerned that "liberalism" is being blamed for and associated indelibly with Islam which will damage its credibility in the future and will certainly derail the long march of so-called progress.

You can dress it up how you like, "Liberals against Islam" or whatever T-shirt sloganeering feels good, but you're still playing the moral high ground trick in attempting to set yourself apart from those people as being somehow cut from a better cloth. You are now being gracious enough to bestow permission on people to criticise Islam, as long as you do so in a safe, liberal-approved fashion. It's kind of pathetic.

Still, if this thread heralds an individual seeking sanity after years of PC totalitarianism and silencing of truth and reason, even if they still can't quite accept that their childish liberal brethren will think less of them for it (for this is how the bien-pensants operate), I suppose I cannot be against it, as this problem has to be dealt with. I just don't have any faith that the "liberals" are going to be the ones to neutralise the Islamification of the West. They aren't allowed to have the balls.
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DErasmus
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I'm no more against Islam than I am Christianity, the difference is as a liberal I abhor any religious interference in government.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by DErasmus)
I'm no more against Islam than I am Christianity, the difference is as a liberal I abhor any religious interference in government.
I am also only slightly more against Islam than I am Christianity (The Old Testament is just as bad as the Qu'ran and the Bukhari but it at least the bible has the redeeming feature of the Gospels, with a prophet which preaches peace and tolerance, where as Islam has a prophet who does many pretty terrible things, and is often very intolerant of non-believers or those who don't obey the Qu'ran, despite a few verses which contradict this). But there is far more of a crusade in certain left-wing media sources against anyone who dares criticize Islam or points out that the religion does have somewhat of an influence in the numerous crimes that Muslims have committed in the name of the ideology.
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DErasmus
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(Original post by KingBradly)
I am also only slightly more against Islam than I am Christianity (Christianity is just as bad but it at least has the redeeming feature of the Gospels and a prophet which preaches peace and tolerance, where as Islam has a prophet who does many pretty terrible things, and is often very intolerant of non-believers, despite occasional verses which contradict this) But there is far more of a crusade in certain left-wing media sources against anyone who dares criticize Islam or points out that the religion does have somewhat of an influence in the numerous crimes that Muslims have committed in the name of the ideology.
they're lunatics

Islamism = politically (authoritative) conservative, socially authoritarian and economically self-sufficient

Successful societies
= politically liberal conservative or republican, socially liberal and economically free trade
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LEFTisBEST
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You're anything but liberal.
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geneticist
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I didn't know Dawkins was liberal.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by LEFTisBEST)
You're anything but liberal.
I support freedom of speech, lack of censorship, a benefits system, public healthcare and education, the decriminalization of recreational drug use and free rehabilitation available for addicts, egalitarianism, abolishing faith schools, a secular state, LGBT rights, a justice system that is based on rehabilitating criminals rather than punishing them, the right to be nudist, animal rights, and protecting the environment through conservation and using more recyclable materials.

But yeh, I guess because I don't defend a highly conservative ideology, I'm not a liberal.

Makes perfect sense.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by geneticist)
I didn't know Dawkins was liberal.
He's pretty damn liberal.
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donteven
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So you basically want Muslims to either leave their religion or leave this country. You really are lost, don't you know its a basic human right for people to be able to practice their religion without fear of govt oppressing them. If you remove that basic human right then Britain really isn't about freedom. And for your information Liberalism is primarily about tolerance, i.e: people of different race religion sex etc tolerating each other and living together peacefully. What your saying isn't liberalism but rather a far right ideology similar to Nazism and the Jewish people. Except now your looking to the Muslims
BTW really hope this page doesnt make it to popular because its really stupid
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KingBradly
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(Original post by donteven)
So you basically want Muslims to either leave their religion or leave this country. You really are lost, don't you know its a basic human right for people to be able to practice their religion without fear of govt oppressing them. If you remove that basic human right then Britain really isn't about freedom. And for your information Liberalism is primarily about tolerance, i.e: people of different race religion sex etc tolerating each other and living together peacefully. What your saying isn't liberalism but rather a far right ideology similar to Nazism and the Jewish people. Except now your looking to the Muslims
BTW really hope this page doesnt make it to popular because its really stupid
Where the hell did you get that idea? Was there anywhere in that post that said that? Do you live in a binary world where you either defend Islam or you're a fascist who wants them to be exported from the country? Is your little mind really so incredibly simple that it can only comprehend two possible binary perspectives on a subject? Do you just get the entirety of your opinions from The Guardian, or are you able to think for yourself?

No, I do not want Muslims to be persecuted in any way. My point is that people should be able to criticize Islam and Muslims without being labelled 'Nazis', like you are clearly so quick to do. Liberalism isn't "primarily" about tolerance, liberals espouse a vast range of different views, some focusing more on freedom of speech, some more on socialism, some more about personal liberty, some more on civil rights, and some more on free and fair elections. But, although liberalism has many shapes and forms, a liberal view does always include freedom of the press, so enforcing tolerance should never extend to censoring freedom of speech if you are still going to call your view 'liberal'.

You clearly love to think of yourself as a wonderfully tolerant type, but condemning anyone as a 'Nazi' for criticizing a very conservative ideology, is doubly very intolerant, in that it defends a highly intolerant ideology, and shows an absurdly intolerant attitude to anyone who dares speak up against it. Calling me the Nazi? Take a look in the mirror, please.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by donteven)
So you basically want Muslims to either leave their religion or leave this country. You really are lost, don't you know its a basic human right for people to be able to practice their religion without fear of govt oppressing them. If you remove that basic human right then Britain really isn't about freedom. I am a mindless animal who can't formulate concepts on my own. And for your information Liberalism is primarily about tolerance, i.e: people of different race religion sex etc tolerating each other and living together peacefully. I am a mindless animal who can't formulate concepts on my own. What your saying isn't liberalism but rather a far right ideology similar to Nazism and the Jewish people. Except now your looking to the Muslims
BTW really hope this page doesnt make it to popular because its really stupid
Wow you can't even reply.
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adil-h
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> liberals
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geneticist
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What is "being against Islam"exactly, in detail?
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KingBradly
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(Original post by geneticist)
What is "being against Islam"exactly, in detail?
Feeling that one should criticize it.
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geneticist
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(Original post by KingBradly)
Feeling that one should criticize it.
What happened to the freedom of speech? O.o
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Skip_Snip
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(Original post by geneticist)
What happened to the freedom of speech? O.o
Criticizing muslims is part of freedom of speech.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by geneticist)
What happened to the freedom of speech? O.o
You mean the freedom of speech that includes the freedom to criticize?
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Bissy
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(Original post by KingBradly)
I am also only slightly more against Islam than I am Christianity (The Old Testament is just as bad as the Qu'ran and the Bukhari but it at least the bible has the redeeming feature of the Gospels, with a prophet which preaches peace and tolerance, where as Islam has a prophet who does many pretty terrible things, and is often very intolerant of non-believers or those who don't obey the Qu'ran, despite a few verses which contradict this). But there is far more of a crusade in certain left-wing media sources against anyone who dares criticize Islam or points out that the religion does have somewhat of an influence in the numerous crimes that Muslims have committed in the name of the ideology.
The bible having gospels is irrelevant, it does not make the bible any more redeeming. It's anti-gay content is still wrong (IMO) regardless of it having a few songs. that doesn't seem very peaceful and tolerant to me. What I'm saying is, the bible is definitely just as bad or as good as the Qu'ran. you have extremists from each group, e.g. Islam and ISIS and Christianity and the westboro baptist church. Therefore, the basis in which you are more slightly against Islam than Christianity, to me, is weak.
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KingBradly
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(Original post by Bissy)
The bible having gospels is irrelevant, it does not make the bible any more redeeming. It's anti-gay content is still wrong (IMO) regardless of it having a few songs. that doesn't seem very peaceful and tolerant to me. What I'm saying is, the bible is definitely just as bad or as good as the Qu'ran. you have extremists from each group, e.g. Islam and ISIS and Christianity and the westboro baptist church. Therefore, the basis in which you are more slightly against Islam than Christianity, to me, is weak.
I am not bothered if someone disagrees with me that Islam is worse than Christianity. Undoubtedly, the gospels do not excuse the homophobic content. I dislike both religions very much, so I certainly don't want to expend energy arguing about one being perhaps slightly less abhorrent than the other.

The numbers killed in the name of Islam and Christianity is probably fairly equal. Maybe more have been killed in the name of Christianity.

But I am not concerned with this. Currently, there aren't a huge amount of people being killed in the name of Christianity. I mean, there certainly are people being killed, but the crimes committed in the name of Christianity are of the same level as the ones committed in the name of Islam which are often not great enough to make the news (although still appalling).

However, there are massive atrocities being committed by Muslims at the moment. More atrocities than by any other religious group currently. And yet I feel there is a disdain among the right-on media towards anyone who criticizes the religion. This is what I think should change.
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