Do you hate Americans?

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Bismarck
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#2461
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#2461
(Original post by Douglas)
I noticed that almost 1000 people have voted in this (hate America) poll, a pretty good sample. I wonder if it's representative of all the limeys in Limey land....and other non Americans. 31% is a pretty good slice of the pie.
I've seen polls showing that only about 50% of Brits support the US (which is sadly more than all but a handful of countries), though the question wasn't phrased as harshly as this one.
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Douglas
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#2462
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#2462
(Original post by Bismarck)
I've seen polls showing that only about 50% of Brits support the US (which is sadly more than all but a handful of countries), though the question wasn't phrased as harshly as this one.
I wonder if the BBC is a big contributor to the anti Americanism?....along with the Guardian and other British left wing media.
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Made in the USA
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#2463
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#2463
(Original post by Douglas)
I wonder if the BBC is a big contributor to the anti Americanism?....along with the Guardian and other British left wing media.
Yup, they are part of the hate-america brigade. This is a great website where an american living in London does a great job documenting and countering all the BBC's misinformation about america:

http://www.theamericanexpatinuk.blogspot.com/
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Douglas
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#2464
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#2464
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Yup, they are part of the hate-america brigade. This is a great website where an american living in London does a great job documenting and countering all the BBC's misinformation about america:

http://www.theamericanexpatinuk.blogspot.com/
Interesting link. I think I now know why the Brits think all republicans are religious zealots.
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Made in the USA
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#2465
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#2465
(Original post by Douglas)
Interesting link. I think I now know why the Brits think all republicans are religious zealots.
I'm already 1/4 of the way down the page. There is some really funny stuff here. This is my favorite thus far:

Beware the ellipses
The BBC today dowdifies a quote from Donald Rumsfeld.

Qouth Rumsfeld:

You just can't hear day after day after day after day things like that that often aren't true, with a lack of balance, and not come away thinking, gee, that must not be a very good country.

And after coming through the BBC quotation grinder:

You just can’t…not come away thinking, gee, that [the US] must not be a very
good country.


To be totally fair, the mangled quote appears in a quote box on the side of the article, and the body of the article does contain the full, proper quote. But the quote box is highlighted and in bold, and is the first thing the eye is drawn to apart from perhaps the headline and the photo of Rumsfeld. And in it the BBC has altered what is an implicit criticism of the media into an unqualified and derogatory observation about the US itself.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2466
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#2466
(Original post by Bismarck)
Talk about BBC bias, here's an article on climate change:

Link

Out of the 4 people who are quoted in the article, every single one is critical of George Bush. Since when does reporting only require presenting one side of the issue? Furthermore, most of the people quoted bashed Bush, and did not say anything about climate change. A reasoning for America's stance on the issue is not given and no expert who supports America's position is quoted. Pure propaganda.
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas
I wonder if the BBC is a big contributor to the anti Americanism?....along with the Guardian and other British left wing media.



Yup, they are part of the hate-america brigade. This is a great website where an american living in London does a great job documenting and countering all the BBC's misinformation about america
Every single example of "anti-Americanism" offered by you all has been criticism of George Bush. Nothing more than that. How is criticism of Bush tantamount to anti-Americanism? What is he, our Fuhrer? Identifying a leader with a nation---to the extent that an attack on the leader equals an attack on the nation---is a fascist/totalitarian trademark. It is not in the character of a free republic.
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Made in the USA
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#2467
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#2467
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
Every single example of "anti-Americanism" offered by you all has been criticism of George Bush. Nothing more than that. How is criticism of Bush tantamount to anti-Americanism? What is he, our Fuhrer?
Did you even click the link before typing your post? There are many examples of the british media's "anti-americanism" on that website and many of them have nothing to do with bush.

Identifying a leader with a nation---to the extent that an attack on the leader equals an attack on the nation---is a fascist/totalitarian trademark. It is not in the character of a free republic.
A leader that was democratically elected by most Americans. If they hate him, then they have to hate the people that voted him into power.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2468
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#2468
(Original post by Douglas)
Nope, I believe they criticized the U.S.
Nope. Here's what you actually posted:

On the BBC site I found:

1) BBC's reporting of U.S. President George Bush's pledge of $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa makes a good case study. Approximating as it does to four times the entire GDP of Zambia, one might expect that such a gigantic aid package would be reported positively. However, a search of the BBC's Web site reveals an altogether different picture.

>Of the articles that relate to the AIDS initiative, one reports President Bush's summer tour of five African countries, entitled: "Is the US Africa's friend or foe?" Within the piece its author remarks: "others saw ulterior motives behind Mr. Bush's visit. Some of the AIDS cash is dependent on deals with U.S. pharmaceutical companies, while others saw America's thirst for oil as the key motivation. Meanwhile the U.S. has refused to commit help to Liberia during [the] recent heavy conflict."

>This is one way that the BBC achieves "impartiality" -- countering positive, real news about the U.S. with hostile "quotes" ascribed to anonymous "sources" or rent-a-rant pressure groups.
This is all criticism of Bush.

What you call "positive, real news about America" and "hostile 'quotes,'" I call reporting Bush's public relations effort while voicing reasonable criticism. Why do you label the criticism "hostile"? Hostile to whom?

"Anti-Americanism" would consist of an attack either on our national identity (e.g., "Americans are stupid"), or on our framework (e.g., "constitutional republics are bad"), or on ideals most of us share (e.g., "freedom of speech is a terrible thing"). Because you could make a sensible case that things such as these (our identity, structure, and ideals) constitute Americanism. But George W. Bush's tour of Africa does not constitute Americanism. Criticism of our president's actions is not an attack on our nation. Many, many Americans are critical of his actions as well. I'm critical of the myself, and I am definitely not anti-American.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2469
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#2469
A leader that was democratically elected by most Americans. If they hate him, then they have to hate the people that voted him into power.
Who says they hate him? They disagree with him.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2470
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#2470
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Did you even click the link before typing your post? There are many examples of the british media's "anti-americanism" on that website and many of them have nothing to do with bush.
I just did click on it. Please.

This website quotes coverage that is not Republican in tendency. It paints the U.S. as being far more religious than Europe ... which it is. It quotes the BBC quoting Kofi Annan---so what? Sure, maybe this stuff wouldn't go over big in Des Moines, but Des Moines is not coextensive with America.
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Made in the USA
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#2471
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#2471
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
I just did click on it. Please.

This website quotes coverage that is not Republican in tendency. It paints the U.S. as being far more religious than Europe ... which it is.
There are several examples of journalists going out of their way to paint as as a bunch of bible thumpers, even going as far as making up facts, if necessary.

I have dual citizenship (yeah, that's right, the USA isn't the only place I can vote :eek: ) and have been to many countries in Europe. I live 30 miles north of New York City and there is no way the 100 million or so that live in the north east, west coast or south Florida are, on average, more religious than people in Greece or Italy. Anyone that argues otherwise hasn't got a clue.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2472
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#2472
(Original post by Made in the USA)
There are several examples of journalists going out of their way to paint as as a bunch of bible thumpers, even going as far as making up facts, if necessary.

I have dual citizenship (yeah, that's right, the USA isn't the only place I can vote :eek: ) and have been to many countries in Europe. I live 30 miles north of New York City and there is no way the 100 million or so that live in the north east, west coast or south Florida are, on average, more religious than people in Greece or Italy. Anyone that argues otherwise hasn't got a clue.
Look at the nation as a whole. Look at figures for religious belief---any figures you like. Then compare them to those of the other "First World" countries.

You ought to get out of Westchester and the Westchester mindset once in a while. I live about 2 miles west of New York City, and I've lived all over the Northeast (mostly in NYC itself). But my job prospects and financial bracket has been such that I've never part of the "laptop at Starbucks" crowd. I know what you people are like, though, since I go to school: you make outrageous generalizations about "the East Coast" and "the East Coast mentality," referring to maybe the top 20% in income and completely ignoring everyone else.

When you talked about NYC, the Northeast, & South Florida just now I bet you completely forgot about the huge black and Hispanic populations. Guess what? Those people are very religious. Check the figures, or better yet, talk to some of them. As are working-class white people (yes, they exist).

The East Coast isn't where you'll find too many peple who believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but that's the Bible-thumping stuff and at that we do exceed the developed world.
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Bismarck
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#2473
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#2473
(Original post by Made in the USA)
There are several examples of journalists going out of their way to paint as as a bunch of bible thumpers, even going as far as making up facts, if necessary.

I have dual citizenship (yeah, that's right, the USA isn't the only place I can vote :eek: ) and have been to many countries in Europe. I live 30 miles north of New York City and there is no way the 100 million or so that live in the north east, west coast or south Florida are, on average, more religious than people in Greece or Italy. Anyone that argues otherwise hasn't got a clue.
You're one of the useless people. :p:

(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
You out to get out of Westchester and the Westchester mindset once in a while. I live about 2 miles west of New York City, and I've lived all over the Northeast (mostly in NYC itself). But my job prospects and financial bracket has been such that I've never part of the "laptop at Starbucks" crowd. I know what you people are like, though, since I go to school: you make outrageous generalizations about "the East Coast" and "the East Coast mentality," referring to maybe the top 20% in income and completely ignoring everyone else.
Perhaps some day you can get an education and well-paying job. Then you might stop complaining that the world is unfair and that everyone is trying to keep you down.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2474
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#2474
(Original post by Bismarck)
Perhaps some day you can get an education and well-paying job. Then you might stop complaining that the world is unfair and that everyone is trying to keep you down.
You've misunderstood me.

I wasn't complaining. I don't aspire to be part of the laptops/Starbucks crowd and I'm glad that I'm not. I never said anything like "the world is unfair and everyone is trying to keep [me] down." I am happy with the experiences I've had and I feel that the insularity of more well-off people impoverishes them.
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Bismarck
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#2475
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#2475
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
You've misunderstood me.

I wasn't complaining. I don't aspire to be part of the laptops/Starbucks crowd and I'm glad that I'm not. I never said anything like "the world is unfair and everyone is trying to keep [me] down." I am happy with the experiences I've had and I feel that the insularity of more well-off people impoverishes them.
Considering your support for socialism, you apparently want to add to that impoverishment. You complain about the system being unfair, yet you don't do anything to take advantage of the system. It seems that your only real complaint against the well-off is that they try to gain wealth while you don't.
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Iz the Wiz
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#2476
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#2476
(Original post by Bismarck)
Considering your support for socialism, you apparently want to add to that impoverishment. You complain about the system being unfair, yet you don't do anything to take advantage of the system. It seems that your only real complaint against the well-off is that they try to gain wealth while you don't.
What do you mean, I "don't take advantage of the system"? That I'm not in business school or something? I don't want to be a chairman, I don't want to "take advantage of the system" in the sense of securing a compound interest and then golfing all day. Meaning I really don't want to. It strikes me as a drag. (I definitely take advantage of the fact that I live in a free democracy, and I am grateful for that.)

I have no "complaint" against the well-off; I just have reasons for not trying to join their ranks (reasons which boil down to personal taste, really. I like gin and cigarettes more than champagne and caviar, etc. etc.). This has nothing to with my conviction that capitalist profit-taking is unjust.
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Bismarck
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#2477
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#2477
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
What do you mean, I "don't take advantage of the system"? That I'm not in business school or something? I don't want to be a chairman, I don't want to "take advantage of the system" in the sense of securing a compound interest and then golfing all day. Meaning I really don't want to. It strikes me as a drag. (I definitely take advantage of the fact that I live in a free democracy, and I am grateful for that.)

I have no "complaint" against the well-off; I just have reasons for not trying to join their ranks (reasons which boil down to personal taste, really. I like gin and cigarettes more than champagne and caviar, etc. etc.). This has nothing to with my conviction that capitalist profit-taking is unjust.
Is it unjust merely because you're unwilling/unable to partake in this profit-taking? How can you say that a system that allows anyone who takes part in it to prosper is unfair?
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skagirl
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#2478
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#2478
u cant judge all of america by bush. lots of them are nice people. lots are losers. same with britain or any country.



and besides, billie-joe armstrong is pretty...
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Iz the Wiz
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#2479
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#2479
(Original post by Bismarck)
Is it unjust merely because you're unwilling/unable to partake in this profit-taking? How can you say that a system that allows anyone who takes part in it to prosper is unfair?
I gave an example on the Socialism thread of what is, to my mind, typical of this injustice:

When you own 17% of a shoe factory in Sri Lanka, your dividends are created entirely by the labors of starving Asians---who turn raw leather and rubber (17% of which is owned by you), stage by stage, into shiny fashionable shoes, and thereby increase the value of "your" materials by about 2,000%. You have done nothing. But you reap 17% of this 2,000% profit while the starving Asians get a pittance of a wage. Who's getting something for nothing?
I might add that conditions in these factories are frequently deplorable, and the people work long hours and ruin their health. Is this justice? Is this right?
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Bismarck
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#2480
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#2480
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
I might add that conditions in these factories are frequently deplorable, and the people work long hours and ruin their health. Is this justice? Is this right?
Firsly, the owners of the factory are guaranteed nothing. Demand for shoes can plummet tomorrow and you can lose your entire investment. The government of Sri Lanka might decide to nationalize your industry. The factory can burn down. These owners are risking their money, for which they expect a large enough return.

If these people didn't build a factory in Sri Lanka, the Sri Lankans who are employed there would have no jobs. They would starve to death or be forced into prostitution. They can also expect to get paid roughly twice as much working for this foreign factory, and work under conditions much better than they would get if they worked for a local firm. So what's better, socialism where these workers starve to death, or capitalism where they make a decent living though under harsh conditions?
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