Do you hate Americans?

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psychic_satori
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#1901
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#1901
(Original post by SamTheMan)
You're right about the ratios decreasing as you go back in time but as you go back, the number of ancestors increases. In a typical family where the kids have 4 grandparents: one a recent immigrant, and the 3 others "All-Americans". Among those 3 others, if you go back, they're all 1/2 or 1/4 German.
But the 1/2, 1/4 German scenario only works if one of the parents of the grandparents was right off the boat from Germany. At least in my family tree, many of the new immigrants seemed to marry non-immigrants, unless they brought a spouse with them.

The larger proporition of the population's bloodline isn't recent immigrants actually as the core of the US population was made during the 19th and 20th century. The Germans always had strong waves of immigration.
But the core population was much more watered down, because of intermarriage between varying ethnic groups and people with mixed backgrounds.

At the last US census, German was the mostly commonly claimed ethnicity.
Not surprising in the least, because German families held on to unique German traditions and foods, while the British families didn't.

Well I still find it hard to explain why the number of people claiming British ethnicity has decreased in the last few decades in the US with respect to other European ethnicities(I'm talking with respect to other European ethnicities that are not increasing through immigration either).
I think it just has a lot to do with proximity to the ancestors. I mean, I have British ancestry, but really, I feel like kind of a jerk for claiming that on the same level as my other ethnicities because it was so far back that, by the time I was born, those people were ancient history. My grandfather, on the other hand, knew some of the British immigrant relatives when he was younger, so he felt a deeper connection to that.

Also, a lot of the Irish that came to America...didn't really appreciate England, and they were rather vocal about it. That may have something to do with the reduction in claiming British ancestry

As for the German ethnicity, which is the most important ethnic origin in the US, yet people don't go around with "Kiss Me I'm German" t-shirts.

Of course there are many factors that would explain why some ethnic origins are claimed more than others, but clearly, among ethnic origins corresponding to the same immigration phases (say British and Irish in the 19th century, although British immigration was less important than Irish by then), people seem prouder to identify themselves with certain ethnic origins more than others.

Millions of Irish arrived in the US in the 19th century but so did millions of Germans and British at the same time. Yet Americans don't show off their German or British descent the way they flaunt their Irish heritage.

Well, maybe this is just because I'm from Pennsylvania, the most thoroughly German state in the country, but we actually do have those shirts for Oktoberfest. And, the Amish speak an old form of German. And I can name half a dozen PA towns off the top of my head with names of German origin (Berlin, Germantown, Augsburg, Dilltown, Strasburg, Smicksburg...), there remains a great deal of pride in German heritage at least where I am from.
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SamTheMan
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#1902
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#1902
(Original post by psychic_satori)
But the 1/2, 1/4 German scenario only works if one of the parents of the grandparents was right off the boat from Germany. At least in my family tree, many of the new immigrants seemed to marry non-immigrants, unless they brought a spouse with them.
I was just giving a quick example where people might have a lot of German blood, yet it isn't obvious at first sight. When I said that the grandparents could be 1/2 German, it doesn't necessarily mean that one of their parents was an immigrant: maybe one could be 3/4 German and the other 1/4 German and their German ancestors didn't arrive at the same time at all.
The German waves of immigration have been so persistent in US history that it's not surprising that so many people claim to have German ancestry. Yet, you have to admit that compared to other ethnicities, it's not displayed as much as Irish, Polish or Italian. I think that a lot of the Germans and French (Huguenots), being Protestants were more easily incorporated into the WASP population. A lot decided to anglicise their surnames too.

(Original post by psychic_satori)
But the core population was much more watered down, because of intermarriage between varying ethnic groups and people with mixed backgrounds.
I guess so but the fact that today 3/4 of the US population is white, yet only 1 in 14 immigrants is white shows that most of the population was not formed in the last few decades. The media make a lot of fuss about immigration from Latin America and I am aware of areas where the Latin American is a huge minority to the extent that they can claim to be a majority. But as a whole, even Hispanics are only just reaching the numbers of African-American whereas the core of the African-American population was formed several centuries ago

(Original post by psychic_satori)
Not surprising in the least, because German families held on to unique German traditions and foods, while the British families didn't.
Compared to the British, German families could distinguish themselves, whereas the British were automatically incorporated into the WASP population. However even Germans could be incorporated into the WASP population.
[/QUOTE]

(Original post by psychic_satori)
I think it just has a lot to do with proximity to the ancestors. I mean, I have British ancestry, but really, I feel like kind of a jerk for claiming that on the same level as my other ethnicities because it was so far back that, by the time I was born, those people were ancient history. My grandfather, on the other hand, knew some of the British immigrant relatives when he was younger, so he felt a deeper connection to that.

Also, a lot of the Irish that came to America...didn't really appreciate England, and they were rather vocal about it. That may have something to do with the reduction in claiming British ancestry

Well, maybe this is just because I'm from Pennsylvania, the most thoroughly German state in the country, but we actually do have those shirts for Oktoberfest. And, the Amish speak an old form of German. And I can name half a dozen PA towns off the top of my head with names of German origin (Berlin, Germantown, Augsburg, Dilltown, Strasburg, Smicksburg...), there remains a great deal of pride in German heritage at least where I am from.
I guess so. There is German heritage but it's surprising there isn't more of it. But considering the number of Germans and the number of German towns (a lot of them take on the English form of the town anyway like "Hanover" instead of "Hannover") and compared to the number of towns named after British towns...
I think what you just mentioned about the Irish puts a finger on one of the issues why certain ethnicities are not claimed. These days people would rather claim to have had poor Irish ancestors than to claim they were ancestors of the Cabots or some other Pilgrims. It's considered a bit snooty.
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SamTheMan
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#1903
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#1903
Anyway, since statistics talk for themselves

http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/1990.html

http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/2000.html

Notice how between 1990 and 2000, almost 10 million people stopped claiming English ancestry, and almost 10 million of Irish descent (I'm surprised by that statistic) stopped claiming their Irish ancesty. A lot of people have just claimed "American" ancestry.
While there's that tendency for people with very old ancestry (English, Irish, German), a lot of people with more recent immigrant ancestry (Italian, Polish) and more distinct ancestry (such as Scottish, or Ulster) as it distinguishes them more, have held on to the claim of that ancestry.
It seems that it's a lot more complex than I thought...
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djchak
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#1904
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#1904
OK, found a little more info.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawac...5-ddaa9c40ba0e

In a telephone poll of 500 teens aged 14 to 18, more than 40 per cent of respondents saw the U.S. as an evil global force. Among French-Canadians, that number jumped to 64 per cent.

then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126401,00.html
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Made in the USA
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#1905
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#1905
(Original post by djchak)
OK, found a little more info.

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawac...5-ddaa9c40ba0e

In a telephone poll of 500 teens aged 14 to 18, more than 40 per cent of respondents saw the U.S. as an evil global force. Among French-Canadians, that number jumped to 64 per cent.

then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126401,00.html
Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
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djchak
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#1906
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
I just take everything fox reports with a grain of salt, the same way I would the BBC. There's going to be a little bit of bias in any news....
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Howard
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#1907
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#1907
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:
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djchak
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#1908
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#1908
(Original post by Howard)
Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:

I dunno, I liked visiting Alberta. They seemed more down to earth, and the landcape of the rockies is stunning. Everyone in the world should get a chance to see it.
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psychic_satori
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#1909
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#1909
(Original post by djchak)
I dunno, I liked visiting Alberta. They seemed more down to earth, and the landcape of the rockies is stunning. Everyone in the world should get a chance to see it.
The Canadians in the Plains tend to be more pro-America than those along the coastlines. Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba were the provinces where there was the most support for Canada joining the Coalition Forces.
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SamTheMan
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#1910
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#1910
(Original post by Made in the USA)
Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
The thing is some of the anti-American Canadians are those that know little about Canada and their own culture. These people are so focused on the US that they end up being like them anyway. When people are ignorant about their own culture, identifying themselves as ferocious "non-Americans" is much easier than understanding their own culture. Even very proud and true Canadians have that anti-American touch but they still recognise the great aspects of the US.

Canadians have true national identity problems: those of British descent aren't really allowed to identify themselves as having strong ties with Britain as Australia or New Zealand always have as this would upset French Canadians and they can't really identify themselves as Americans as almost the entire history of English Canada (apart from parts of the Maritimes and the Hudson Bay Company) has been about loyalists who showed two fingers to the revolutionary cause.
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Douglas
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#1911
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#1911
(Original post by djchak)
then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...
Which program(s) on Fox news do you take with a grain of salt?
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Douglas
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#1912
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#1912
(Original post by katiesado)
Calling yourself "All-American" is only for politicians and beauty queen hopefuls. It's also a good way to sell trucks with 4 wheel drive. "American" is only a cultural identity in an ideological sense.
Calling yourself "all American" means that you're a mongrel, lack of a pure blood strain, a non-thoroughbred, genetic misfits.....dat wat make us sooo mean, dat why we torture, rape and pillage.
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Douglas
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#1913
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#1913
(Original post by Howard)
Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:
Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
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psychic_satori
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#1914
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#1914
(Original post by Douglas)
Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
That would leave them without something to complain about when they are bored...and it would add extra confusion to hockey, which is probably of greater concern to the Quebecois than their independence. Go Habs.
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SamTheMan
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#1915
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(Original post by Douglas)
Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
Jean Charest, Quebec's new Premier is part of the Labour Party and supports the status quo. So any plans to succede have been abandoned (for now anyway...).

Although the vote was so close last time, it seems that the current trend in opinion in Quebec is likely to increase pro-Canadian sentiment. When the "Yes" vote lost at the last referendum, the head of the Quebec Nationalist Party claimed that it was due to the "vote of the minorities". Despite the comment being extremely racist, it's true. 60% of French Canadians voted to succede.

However, some of these "minorities" have only become minorities after years of (voluntary or involuntary) cultural oppression in Quebec. From representing about a quarter of the population a few decades ago, the anglophone population now only represents 8 or 9% percent of the Quebec population today. During its crusade to defend francophone culture, the Quebec government basically ignored the huge English-speaking population and millions left Quebec, as they no longer felt at home.

This worked a treat for Quebec separatists as the English speakers were pro-Canadians but 10% of the population still remain very anglophone. A more important phenomenon is the influx of new immigrants who couldn't give a rat's ass about separatist issues and simply know that for economic reasons, Quebec should remain Canadian. As their numbers increase, it is unlikely that the cause for separatism will receive increased support.

Although separatists would refuse to accept it, the whole separatist movement is based on centuries-long bitterness and is in no way constructive. What's more, Quebec, formerly named Lower Canada, is at the core of Canadian history. Quebec is right at the heart of Canada.
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pissface
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#1916
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(Original post by SamTheMan)
Millions of Irish arrived in the US in the 19th century but so did millions of Germans and British at the same time. Yet Americans don't show off their German or British descent the way they flaunt their Irish heritage.
Hm..I think the reason that this is is because people who are Irish enjoy showing off their heritage. St. Pattie's day makes it that way. Everyone loves being Irish and drawing up their family trees to wave in people's noses. I'm 1/4. My best friend on the other hand is 1/2 british 1/2 german. She's just not into flauting her history. Also, the majority of Americans are more Irish than British. The only reason I can call myself British is due to the fact that one man married into an Irish family. :rolleyes:
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Howard
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(Original post by AmericanChick)
Hm..I think the reason that this is is because people who are Irish enjoy showing off their heritage. St. Pattie's day makes it that way. Everyone loves being Irish and drawing up their family trees to wave in people's noses. I'm 1/4. My best friend on the other hand is 1/2 british 1/2 german. She's just not into flauting her history. Also, the majority of Americans are more Irish than British. The only reason I can call myself British is due to the fact that one man married into an Irish family. :rolleyes:
Correction. The majority of Americans WANT TO BE more Irish than British. It's more in vogue. The Brits of course had been in the US for over 200 years before Paddy came along. I suspect there are many more Americans who are of English/Scottish/Welsh stock than Irish. But as I say, it's more fashionable to be a Mick.
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pissface
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#1918
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(Original post by AmericanChick)
Hm..I think the reason that this is is because people who are Irish enjoy showing off their heritage. St. Pattie's day makes it that way. Everyone loves being Irish and drawing up their family trees to wave in people's noses. I'm 1/4. My best friend on the other hand is 1/2 british 1/2 german. She's just not into flauting her history. Also, the majority of Americans are more Irish than British. The only reason I can call myself British is due to the fact that one man married into an Irish family. :rolleyes:
Yes Howard, that's somewhat what I said...See highlighted. Your probably right. The British were here long before the Irish, but now I think, the British heritage has been so diluted that almsot everyone you talk to who is british is also Irish...
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LH
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#1919
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(Original post by Howard)
Correction. The majority of Americans WANT TO BE more Irish than British. It's more in vogue. The Brits of course had been in the US for over 200 years before Paddy came along. I suspect there are many more Americans who are of English/Scottish/Welsh stock than Irish. But as I say, it's more fashionable to be a Mick.
Exactly. I'm more Irish than most Americans but you don't see me dressing up like a leprachaun and shouting it from the roof tops.

Even those Americans who are of Irish heritage, for most of them it was so bloodly long ago that Great-Great Grandad Seamus and his wife went over to America that they're no more Irish than they are African.
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Howard
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#1920
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(Original post by LH)
Exactly. I'm more Irish than most Americans but you don't see me dressing up like a leprachaun and shouting it from the roof tops.

Even those Americans who are of Irish heritage, for most of them it was so bloodly long ago that Great-Great Grandad Seamus and his wife went over to America that they're no more Irish than they are African.
How true. My gradad on my mom's side was a kraut which makes me 1/4 kraut myself. But you don't see me living on snitzel and saurkraut or waltzing around in the ridiculous german ledenhose (or however it's spelt) and claiming to be German.
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