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    (Original post by djchak)
    Honestly I'm not suprised that 230 people voted this way. I think if we did have a poll among students in the UK, the results would come out the same.

    I believe there was similar results in a student poll in Canada, back in Nov. I'll try to find a link for clarification.

    Let's face it, outside the US, america bashing is the "hip new thing".

    You would have to be pretty bolkd to say you liked something about the US, just out of the blue...
    I dont think it is really as bad as that. I have travelled extensivley and most of the America bashing I have seen comes from Western Europe. It is suprising that it is mostly the countries who are doing well who have the biggest axe to grind with us. The overwhelming impression I have received from poorer third world countries is that of respect, awe, and admiration.

    I was in siberia once with these 2 british guys (they loved to trash America) the Russians always wanted to talk about America, never England. At one point they even said, "the Beatles, great American rock". The two British guys hated it.

    Most everywhere I have been I have kids who want to show me thier knock off Nike's or thier Laker's shirt, talk about Finding Nemo, take me to buy some Coca Cola, or ask if I know Brittney Spears or Eminem. And I have been to several Muslim dominated areas. The only anti-american hostility I have ever encountered has been by white western Europeans.

    (Yes, I know there are places where I can get my head chopped off for being American, but those places are far and few between)
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    Most everywhere I have been I have kids who want to show me thier knock off Nike's or thier Laker's shirt, talk about Finding Nemo, take me to buy some Coca Cola, or ask if I know Brittney Spears or Eminem. And I have been to several Muslim dominated areas. The only anti-american hostility I have ever encountered has been by white western Europeans.
    Of course! I mean, their social circles totally eclipse!
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    I think the "Canadian" ethnicity is for people who descend from Native American tribes but who do not consider themselves Inuit (They switch it to Canadian to avoid confusion with being a USA American). It's not really a category for your average Joe Canadian.
    No, that's not quite what the Canadian ethnicity means. It definitely means people who wish to distinguish themselves from their mixed ethnic heritage and can't be bothered looking back and would rather just consider themselves as Canadian. Just as in the UK, few people care if they descend from Danes or Swedes.

    From http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/980217/d980217.htm
    As expected, these modifications, in particular the inclusion of "Canadian" as an example, resulted in a major change in the way ethnic origins were reported. As a result, the 1996 Census data on ethnic origin can not be compared meaningfully with data from earlier censuses.

    In the 1996 Census, 5.3 million persons, accounting for 19% of the total population, reported their only ethnic origin as "Canadian". An additional 3.5 million persons (12%) reported both Canadian and other origins. In 1991, when "Canadian" was not listed as an example, 3% reported Canadian only and a further 1% reported Canadian in combination with one or more other origins.

    These people definitely are not of Inuit/Native descent.


    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    Actually, most people I've ever encountered are obsessive about all of their little bits of ethnicities. It's an individuality thing. I've never actually heard of anyone who didn't say "Oh, I'm part German, Polish, etc."
    Well that's what makes it so bizarre. In the US, people who claim to be Irish or Polish are almost never 100% of Irish or Polish descent. For example, on St Paddy's Day, every American who has at least a Great Great Grandparent who was Irish will claim they're Irish. I remember discussing this with you before. This is due to the fact that origins like Irish, Italian or Polish are easier to determine in the US as they correspond to more recent immigration than say British or German immigration, although in effect, there is more British and German blood flowing among the American population.

    I think there's also a cultural factor here: British or German heritage is less celebrated as it reminds Americans of the pre-revolutionary era, and puritanism.
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    (Original post by SamTheMan)
    Well that's what makes it so bizarre. In the US, people who claim to be Irish or Polish are almost never 100% of Irish or Polish descent. For example, on St Paddy's Day, every American who has at least a Great Great Grandparent who was Irish will claim they're Irish. I remember discussing this with you before.
    "Everyone is Irish on St. Patrick's Day!" Haven't you ever heard that saying?

    This is due to the fact that origins like Irish, Italian or Polish are easier to determine in the US as they correspond to more recent immigration than say British or German immigration, although in effect, there is more British and German blood flowing among the American population.
    While there may be a greater proportion who have some British or German ancestry, if you consider how far back those ancestors go, and you go by being 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc, you would see that the more recent immigrant groups do, in fact, make up the larger proportion of one's bloodline.

    I think there's also a cultural factor here: British or German heritage is less celebrated as it reminds Americans of the pre-revolutionary era, and puritanism.
    You said that before, and I still disagree.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    "Everyone is Irish on St. Patrick's Day!" Haven't you ever heard that saying?
    Yep I have!


    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    While there may be a greater proportion who have some British or German ancestry, if you consider how far back those ancestors go, and you go by being 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, etc, you would see that the more recent immigrant groups do, in fact, make up the larger proportion of one's bloodline.
    You're right about the ratios decreasing as you go back in time but as you go back, the number of ancestors increases. In a typical family where the kids have 4 grandparents: one a recent immigrant, and the 3 others "All-Americans". Among those 3 others, if you go back, they're all 1/2 or 1/4 German.
    The larger proporition of the population's bloodline isn't recent immigrants actually as the core of the US population was made during the 19th and 20th century. The Germans always had strong waves of immigration.

    At the last US census, German was the mostly commonly claimed ethnicity.

    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    You said that before, and I still disagree.
    Well I still find it hard to explain why the number of people claiming British ethnicity has decreased in the last few decades in the US with respect to other European ethnicities(I'm talking with respect to other European ethnicities that are not increasing through immigration either).

    As for the German ethnicity, which is the most important ethnic origin in the US, yet people don't go around with "Kiss Me I'm German" t-shirts.

    Of course there are many factors that would explain why some ethnic origins are claimed more than others, but clearly, among ethnic origins corresponding to the same immigration phases (say British and Irish in the 19th century, although British immigration was less important than Irish by then), people seem prouder to identify themselves with certain ethnic origins more than others.

    Millions of Irish arrived in the US in the 19th century but so did millions of Germans and British at the same time. Yet Americans don't show off their German or British descent the way they flaunt their Irish heritage.
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    (Original post by SamTheMan)
    You're right about the ratios decreasing as you go back in time but as you go back, the number of ancestors increases. In a typical family where the kids have 4 grandparents: one a recent immigrant, and the 3 others "All-Americans". Among those 3 others, if you go back, they're all 1/2 or 1/4 German.
    But the 1/2, 1/4 German scenario only works if one of the parents of the grandparents was right off the boat from Germany. At least in my family tree, many of the new immigrants seemed to marry non-immigrants, unless they brought a spouse with them.

    The larger proporition of the population's bloodline isn't recent immigrants actually as the core of the US population was made during the 19th and 20th century. The Germans always had strong waves of immigration.
    But the core population was much more watered down, because of intermarriage between varying ethnic groups and people with mixed backgrounds.

    At the last US census, German was the mostly commonly claimed ethnicity.
    Not surprising in the least, because German families held on to unique German traditions and foods, while the British families didn't.

    Well I still find it hard to explain why the number of people claiming British ethnicity has decreased in the last few decades in the US with respect to other European ethnicities(I'm talking with respect to other European ethnicities that are not increasing through immigration either).
    I think it just has a lot to do with proximity to the ancestors. I mean, I have British ancestry, but really, I feel like kind of a jerk for claiming that on the same level as my other ethnicities because it was so far back that, by the time I was born, those people were ancient history. My grandfather, on the other hand, knew some of the British immigrant relatives when he was younger, so he felt a deeper connection to that.

    Also, a lot of the Irish that came to America...didn't really appreciate England, and they were rather vocal about it. That may have something to do with the reduction in claiming British ancestry

    As for the German ethnicity, which is the most important ethnic origin in the US, yet people don't go around with "Kiss Me I'm German" t-shirts.

    Of course there are many factors that would explain why some ethnic origins are claimed more than others, but clearly, among ethnic origins corresponding to the same immigration phases (say British and Irish in the 19th century, although British immigration was less important than Irish by then), people seem prouder to identify themselves with certain ethnic origins more than others.

    Millions of Irish arrived in the US in the 19th century but so did millions of Germans and British at the same time. Yet Americans don't show off their German or British descent the way they flaunt their Irish heritage.

    Well, maybe this is just because I'm from Pennsylvania, the most thoroughly German state in the country, but we actually do have those shirts for Oktoberfest. And, the Amish speak an old form of German. And I can name half a dozen PA towns off the top of my head with names of German origin (Berlin, Germantown, Augsburg, Dilltown, Strasburg, Smicksburg...), there remains a great deal of pride in German heritage at least where I am from.
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    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    But the 1/2, 1/4 German scenario only works if one of the parents of the grandparents was right off the boat from Germany. At least in my family tree, many of the new immigrants seemed to marry non-immigrants, unless they brought a spouse with them.
    I was just giving a quick example where people might have a lot of German blood, yet it isn't obvious at first sight. When I said that the grandparents could be 1/2 German, it doesn't necessarily mean that one of their parents was an immigrant: maybe one could be 3/4 German and the other 1/4 German and their German ancestors didn't arrive at the same time at all.
    The German waves of immigration have been so persistent in US history that it's not surprising that so many people claim to have German ancestry. Yet, you have to admit that compared to other ethnicities, it's not displayed as much as Irish, Polish or Italian. I think that a lot of the Germans and French (Huguenots), being Protestants were more easily incorporated into the WASP population. A lot decided to anglicise their surnames too.

    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    But the core population was much more watered down, because of intermarriage between varying ethnic groups and people with mixed backgrounds.
    I guess so but the fact that today 3/4 of the US population is white, yet only 1 in 14 immigrants is white shows that most of the population was not formed in the last few decades. The media make a lot of fuss about immigration from Latin America and I am aware of areas where the Latin American is a huge minority to the extent that they can claim to be a majority. But as a whole, even Hispanics are only just reaching the numbers of African-American whereas the core of the African-American population was formed several centuries ago

    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    Not surprising in the least, because German families held on to unique German traditions and foods, while the British families didn't.
    Compared to the British, German families could distinguish themselves, whereas the British were automatically incorporated into the WASP population. However even Germans could be incorporated into the WASP population.
    [/QUOTE]

    (Original post by psychic_satori)
    I think it just has a lot to do with proximity to the ancestors. I mean, I have British ancestry, but really, I feel like kind of a jerk for claiming that on the same level as my other ethnicities because it was so far back that, by the time I was born, those people were ancient history. My grandfather, on the other hand, knew some of the British immigrant relatives when he was younger, so he felt a deeper connection to that.

    Also, a lot of the Irish that came to America...didn't really appreciate England, and they were rather vocal about it. That may have something to do with the reduction in claiming British ancestry

    Well, maybe this is just because I'm from Pennsylvania, the most thoroughly German state in the country, but we actually do have those shirts for Oktoberfest. And, the Amish speak an old form of German. And I can name half a dozen PA towns off the top of my head with names of German origin (Berlin, Germantown, Augsburg, Dilltown, Strasburg, Smicksburg...), there remains a great deal of pride in German heritage at least where I am from.
    I guess so. There is German heritage but it's surprising there isn't more of it. But considering the number of Germans and the number of German towns (a lot of them take on the English form of the town anyway like "Hanover" instead of "Hannover") and compared to the number of towns named after British towns...
    I think what you just mentioned about the Irish puts a finger on one of the issues why certain ethnicities are not claimed. These days people would rather claim to have had poor Irish ancestors than to claim they were ancestors of the Cabots or some other Pilgrims. It's considered a bit snooty.
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    Anyway, since statistics talk for themselves

    http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/1990.html

    http://home.att.net/~wee-monster/2000.html

    Notice how between 1990 and 2000, almost 10 million people stopped claiming English ancestry, and almost 10 million of Irish descent (I'm surprised by that statistic) stopped claiming their Irish ancesty. A lot of people have just claimed "American" ancestry.
    While there's that tendency for people with very old ancestry (English, Irish, German), a lot of people with more recent immigrant ancestry (Italian, Polish) and more distinct ancestry (such as Scottish, or Ulster) as it distinguishes them more, have held on to the claim of that ancestry.
    It seems that it's a lot more complex than I thought...
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    OK, found a little more info.

    http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawac...5-ddaa9c40ba0e

    In a telephone poll of 500 teens aged 14 to 18, more than 40 per cent of respondents saw the U.S. as an evil global force. Among French-Canadians, that number jumped to 64 per cent.

    then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126401,00.html
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    (Original post by djchak)
    OK, found a little more info.

    http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawac...5-ddaa9c40ba0e

    In a telephone poll of 500 teens aged 14 to 18, more than 40 per cent of respondents saw the U.S. as an evil global force. Among French-Canadians, that number jumped to 64 per cent.

    then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126401,00.html
    Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
    I just take everything fox reports with a grain of salt, the same way I would the BBC. There's going to be a little bit of bias in any news....
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
    Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:

    I dunno, I liked visiting Alberta. They seemed more down to earth, and the landcape of the rockies is stunning. Everyone in the world should get a chance to see it.
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    (Original post by djchak)
    I dunno, I liked visiting Alberta. They seemed more down to earth, and the landcape of the rockies is stunning. Everyone in the world should get a chance to see it.
    The Canadians in the Plains tend to be more pro-America than those along the coastlines. Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba were the provinces where there was the most support for Canada joining the Coalition Forces.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Why do you take it with a grain of salt? I think it's pretty accurate. I've met plenty of Canadians and most of them despise the USA with the white-hot fury of a thousand suns.
    The thing is some of the anti-American Canadians are those that know little about Canada and their own culture. These people are so focused on the US that they end up being like them anyway. When people are ignorant about their own culture, identifying themselves as ferocious "non-Americans" is much easier than understanding their own culture. Even very proud and true Canadians have that anti-American touch but they still recognise the great aspects of the US.

    Canadians have true national identity problems: those of British descent aren't really allowed to identify themselves as having strong ties with Britain as Australia or New Zealand always have as this would upset French Canadians and they can't really identify themselves as Americans as almost the entire history of English Canada (apart from parts of the Maritimes and the Hudson Bay Company) has been about loyalists who showed two fingers to the revolutionary cause.
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    (Original post by djchak)
    then of coarse...we have the fox news rept on it..which I take with a grain of salt...
    Which program(s) on Fox news do you take with a grain of salt?
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    (Original post by katiesado)
    Calling yourself "All-American" is only for politicians and beauty queen hopefuls. It's also a good way to sell trucks with 4 wheel drive. "American" is only a cultural identity in an ideological sense.
    Calling yourself "all American" means that you're a mongrel, lack of a pure blood strain, a non-thoroughbred, genetic misfits.....dat wat make us sooo mean, dat why we torture, rape and pillage.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Canada. Leading the world in being just north of the United States. :rolleyes:
    Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
    That would leave them without something to complain about when they are bored...and it would add extra confusion to hockey, which is probably of greater concern to the Quebecois than their independence. Go Habs.
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yes, their claim to fame. Seems like the bulk of the PC socialists are in Ontario and Quebec. I wonder whatever happened to Quebec's movement to secede from Canada.
    Jean Charest, Quebec's new Premier is part of the Labour Party and supports the status quo. So any plans to succede have been abandoned (for now anyway...).

    Although the vote was so close last time, it seems that the current trend in opinion in Quebec is likely to increase pro-Canadian sentiment. When the "Yes" vote lost at the last referendum, the head of the Quebec Nationalist Party claimed that it was due to the "vote of the minorities". Despite the comment being extremely racist, it's true. 60% of French Canadians voted to succede.

    However, some of these "minorities" have only become minorities after years of (voluntary or involuntary) cultural oppression in Quebec. From representing about a quarter of the population a few decades ago, the anglophone population now only represents 8 or 9% percent of the Quebec population today. During its crusade to defend francophone culture, the Quebec government basically ignored the huge English-speaking population and millions left Quebec, as they no longer felt at home.

    This worked a treat for Quebec separatists as the English speakers were pro-Canadians but 10% of the population still remain very anglophone. A more important phenomenon is the influx of new immigrants who couldn't give a rat's ass about separatist issues and simply know that for economic reasons, Quebec should remain Canadian. As their numbers increase, it is unlikely that the cause for separatism will receive increased support.

    Although separatists would refuse to accept it, the whole separatist movement is based on centuries-long bitterness and is in no way constructive. What's more, Quebec, formerly named Lower Canada, is at the core of Canadian history. Quebec is right at the heart of Canada.
 
 
 
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