Should women be allowed to drink while pregnant? Watch

Viva Emptiness
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29614413

Solicitor Neil Sugarman, who represents the council that is taking the claim on behalf of the child, said the mother "had been warned on a number of occasions that if she continued to drink excessively the child would be harmed"."It's for the court of appeal now to decide whether recklessly taking alcohol was tantamount to poisoning the foetus," Mr Sugarman said.



I'm all for encouraging women not to drink during pregnancy, but criminalising women who do?

I don't really see how they can say poisoning a foetus might be made illegal without also criminalising abortion.
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Snagprophet
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I think it should be allowed, but the resultant disabled baby must not receive any support from the state. It's like then people have babies to get money from the state and use their babies as a human shield, saying it's against their human right to receive free money.
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holocene
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
I think it should be allowed, but the resultant disabled baby must not receive any support from the state. It's like then people have babies to get money from the state and use their babies as a human shield, saying it's against their human right to receive free money.
Have you actually thought this through? You would deny a disabled baby help from the state to punish it's mother? Moreover, you would leave the baby entirely in the hands of a mother with a drinking problem who probably won't be able to take care of it? You gotta be trolling.
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Snagprophet
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(Original post by holocene)
Have you actually thought this through? You would deny a disabled baby help from the state to punish it's mother? Moreover, you would leave the baby entirely in the hands of a mother with a drinking problem who probably won't be able to take care of it? You gotta be trolling.
Your solution is to reward these people with this behaviour.
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
Your solution is to reward these people with this behaviour.
Do you think that people who will drink their way from having a healthy foetus to a disabled child will be able to follow that process of actions > consequences?
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indigobluesss
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
I think it should be allowed, but the resultant disabled baby must not receive any support from the state. It's like then people have babies to get money from the state and use their babies as a human shield, saying it's against their human right to receive free money.
Although I disagree with excessive drinking while pregnant, I disagree with you even more!
Why should the baby suffer because his/her mother made a wrong decision...

This is like self-inflicted disease (e.g. lung cancer due to smoking) but on a whole new level. I don't think the baby should suffer as a result.


(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29614413



I'm all for encouraging women not to drink during pregnancy, but criminalising women who do?

I don't really see how they can say poisoning a foetus might be made illegal without also criminalising abortion.[/FONT][/COLOR]
I think they should definitely face criminal charges if they're caught drunk whilst drunk. But I think most are responsible not to do so. So in conc. I think drinking whilst pregnant should be permitted (as it's their right) but not to the point where the alcohol in the blood reaches a certain threshold
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pane123
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
I think it should be allowed, but the resultant disabled baby must not receive any support from the state. It's like then people have babies to get money from the state and use their babies as a human shield, saying it's against their human right to receive free money.
If there were an official "worst idea of all time" award, this would be right up there. The concept is similar to that of North Korean labour camps.

Is it a joke?
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Катя
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
Your solution is to reward these people with this behaviour.
Where, pray tell, is the 'reward'?
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by R Dragon)
I think they should definitely face criminal charges if they're caught drunk whilst drunk. But I think most are responsible not to do so. So in conc. I think drinking whilst pregnant should be permitted (as it's their right) but not to the point where the alcohol in the blood reaches a certain threshold
Lol, you said "drunk whilst drunk" accidentally.

Anyway, so you mean like, a "drink-drive" limit, but for pregnant women? How on earth would that be enforced? I mean during the first part of pregnancy it's not even obvious the women is pregnant - she may not even know herself...what then?
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Drewski
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(Original post by Snagprophet)
I think it should be allowed, but the resultant disabled baby must not receive any support from the state. It's like then people have babies to get money from the state and use their babies as a human shield, saying it's against their human right to receive free money.
Or you support the child but take it away from the abusive parents...?
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Katie_p
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I think perhaps there should be the option to prosecute women for extremely reckless behaviour (alcoholism or drug addiction during pregnancy) if the aim is to disincentivise other women from the same behaviour, or to give assistance to those women performing the behaviour, but I think to criminalise or intervene in mild alcohol consumption or smoking is definitely too far.
I would support compulsory courses or even rehab stints for women who endanger their unborn children through excessive drinking, smoking, or other drug use, with strict guidelines about what constitutes "excessive" behaviour.

I don't think criminalising this behaviour is incompatible with allowing abortion, as abortion ensures that the foetus does not become a person, whilst such reckless behaviour allows the foetus to grow into a person, but with abnormalities. However, I can see why some people would say it is offensive to disabled people and would draw similarities to eugenics, although I personally don't hold such misgivings.
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RandZul'Zorander
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I don't think it should be criminalized. That doesn't however mean that I believe that it should be encouraged or anything like that (obviously).

Edit: I could maybe get behind it depending on the structure of the law...
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Alice_95
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This is a difficult situation. I want to be able to say that people shouldn't be punished for their lifestyle choices, but it's not just about them. Having nursed a baby with foetal alcohol syndrome, the pain and distress it causes is huge. I don't think you can compare it criminalising abortion. This is a baby that has come to term/to an age it can survive and is now living with the effects of the mother's behaviour. I don't know about criminalising it to be honest. I just think that there needs to be more education, and a hope that people will actually listen and consider their actions and how their choices can have far reaching effects.
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indigobluesss
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
Lol, you said "drunk whilst drunk" accidentally.

Anyway, so you mean like, a "drink-drive" limit, but for pregnant women? How on earth would that be enforced? I mean during the first part of pregnancy it's not even obvious the women is pregnant - she may not even know herself...what then?
Haha, I think I'm drunk...

I just registered with my dentist and for my date of birth I wrote: 21/01/2014. She looked at me like I was retarded So today is just one of those days xD

Yeah that's a good point, I think having a limit would be ideal, but like you said it'll be difficult to enforce and unpractical
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by Katie_p)

I don't think criminalising this behaviour is incompatible with allowing abortion, as abortion ensures that the foetus does not become a person, whilst such reckless behaviour allows the foetus to grow into a person, but with abnormalities.
(Original post by Alice_95)
I don't think you can compare it criminalising abortion. This is a baby that has come to term/to an age it can survive and is now living with the effects of the mother's behaviour.
But killing a person is worse than assaulting them and leaving them with a permanent head injury, right? If you agree that the foetus has no right to life then why does it have a right to not be harmed in any way?

Let's add some new factors. What if the woman doesn't plan on keeping the baby so drinks heavily, but then changes her mind?
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F1's Finest
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hah......let em do what they want, they should know the risks involved and the complications that could arise with their baby.

On the other hand, some mothers might genuinely be misinformed about what risks are involved if they drink a certain amount of alcohol whilst pregnant <-------------------- that stuff happens y'know
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Viva Emptiness
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(Original post by James A)
hah......let em do what they want, they should know the risks involved and the complications that could arise with their baby.

On the other hand, some mothers might genuinely be misinformed about what risks are involved if they drink a certain amount of alcohol whilst pregnant <-------------------- that stuff happens y'know
The message surrounded drinking while pregnant is piss-poor and quite unclear. Clearly the safest amount of alcohol to drink while pregnant is none, but there are still guidelines (I think) that say no more than two units no more than once or twice a week is still safe.

They need to really sort out WHAT the message is they want to be giving, backed up by evidence, and really get it out there.
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xoxAngel_Kxox
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I don't understand (and obviously this is only from my perspective) how women can't just NOT drink for a few months of their life. Having a baby is such a responsibility, there are so many different things that can have an effect on the health of your baby when s/he is born, so why do something that might harm them when there's NO need to at all?

I'm not sure about making it a criminal offence though, that feels like a step too far, but still I wonder what would go through women's minds to make them drink at all.
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Katie_p
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(Original post by Viva Emptiness)
But killing a person is worse than assaulting them and leaving them with a permanent head injury, right? If you agree that the foetus has no right to life then why does it have a right to not be harmed in any way?

Let's add some new factors. What if the woman doesn't plan on keeping the baby so drinks heavily, but then changes her mind?
Saying something doesn't have a right to life doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want to it. If a mother chooses to keep the child, I think she has a moral duty to look after it (or ensure it is looked after by giving into care). There is no duty to have a child, but once you decide to, there is a duty not to harm it.

Seeing as I don't support criminalising dangerous behaviour just for the sake of it, I don't think the woman who stops her behaviour at the point she realises she is pregnant/wants to keep the child should be interfered with, unless it is just to educate her about the risks she has exposed the child to, and to offer support in case her child is born with abnormalities.
In my view, state interference in something like this should be only to change the behaviour, or to dissuade it in other cases. Fining or imprisoning a woman who didn't know she was pregnant or didn't intend to give birth to the child wouldn't achieve the first of these aims, and would be disproportionate in achieving the second.
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holocene
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Criminalising it would be really difficult and weird. For example, if you're allowed to get an abortion up to 24 weeks, you wouldn't really be able to criminalise women for getting hammered in those first 24 weeks either.
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