Why are we told to embrace transsexualism?

Resorting to personal insults now?

You might as well just type "I have nothing valid to say".

The definition of sex is here to stay. If you don't like it, start a new thread where you can whine all you like about how unfair the world is.

But in THIS thread, we're using the current, medical definition. So either accept that or don't comment.

Resorting to personal insults now?

You might as well just type "I have nothing valid to say".

The definition of sex is here to stay. If you don't like it, start a new thread where you can whine all you like about how unfair the world is.

But in THIS thread, we're using the current, medical definition. So either accept that or don't comment.

I think debating whether or not one can change their sex is fundamental in this thread - as sex reassignment surgery is the main treatment for transsexualism and gender dismorphic disorder.?

Given that the medical definition you have put forward doesn't account for the anomalies and those who are intersex, I'm not sure it's much use in this thread. Why would a procedure of sex reassignment surgery exist within medicine if we're all accepting that XY = male and XX = female

Personal insult? You haven't actually interacted with my argument. You just keep yelling its not valid because you have one definition which has been contested in scientific literature. But its 'conventional' so don't worry.

But contesting that point by ignorantly refusing to use the accepted convention biological definition of sex is not debating, its semantic obfuscation, filibustering nonsense. It gets us nowhere and proves nothing.

because it relieves the psychological distress caused by gender dismorphia. The doctors carrying out the operation are under no illusions, they know they are not actually changing the sex of the person they are operating on, they are just giving them a body that their mind feels more comfortable with.

At least that is the intention - the evidence suggests that it rarely actually achieves this objective.

If we can't agree to use the orthodox definition of sex, then this whole discussion is a waste of time. You can't argue about terms without first agreeing on their meaning.

I would argue that you aren't debating either. You're just refusing to listen to his point and repeating yourself.
And he isn't just ignorantly refusing, he is a former student of sex and gender who is providing you with evidence to back up his point.

Yet they get a sex reassignment certificate, and are listed as the opposite sex on their passport, driving license etc.

[Sex, although probably not as complex as gender, is not as simple as chromosomes and sex organs - because chromosomes and sex organs are not as simple as XX-vagina and XY-penis.

Well, why not have a civil debate to reach a consensus on what is meant by sex, and then go from there. It seems to be fundamental to the debate to reach an agreement about what you mean by sex.

The definition is what it is. This thread does not exist for him to complain that he doesn't like the definition. If he doesn't like it, he can start another thread where he can complain about it.



That is their gender that is listed as a simple courtesy. Their actual sex remains unchanged. I'm sure you're not so stupid as to think that what it says on someone's driving licence is relevant to a biological fact.



Yes it is. Please look it up if you're confused about this very simple point.



It is not up to us to agree on what we mean by sex, the word has an official definition already, which I have given. Our opinions are irrelevant on this matter.

Sex: the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual; also the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion

sex
1. the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual or the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion. Ova, or macrogametes, are produced by the female, and spermatozoa, or microgametes, are produced by the male. The union of these distinctive germ cells results in the production of a new individual in sexual reproduction.

McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. sex (seks), 1. The biologic character or quality that distinguishes male and female from one another as expressed by analysis of the person's gonadal, morphologic (internal and external), chromosomal, and hormonal characteristics. Compare: gender. 2. The physiologic and psychological processes within a person that prompt behavior related to procreation or erotic pleasure. [L. sexus] Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012 sex (seks) 1. The biologic character or quality that distinguishes male and female from one another as expressed by analysis of the individual's gonadal, morphologic (internal and external), chromosomal, and hormonal characteristics.

sex biological quality distinguishing male and female, expressed by the presence of two X (i.e. female) or X + Y (i.e. male) chromosomes



chromosomal sex , genetic sex sex as determined by the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.
gonadal sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the gonadal tissue present (ovarian or testicular).
morphological sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the morphology of the external genitals.
phenotypic sex the phenotypic manifestations of sex determined by endocrine influences.

Sex: the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual; also the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion

sex
1. the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual or the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion. Ova, or macrogametes, are produced by the female, and spermatozoa, or microgametes, are produced by the male. The union of these distinctive germ cells results in the production of a new individual in sexual reproduction.

McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. sex (seks), 1. The biologic character or quality that distinguishes male and female from one another as expressed by analysis of the person's gonadal, morphologic (internal and external), chromosomal, and hormonal characteristics. Compare: gender. 2. The physiologic and psychological processes within a person that prompt behavior related to procreation or erotic pleasure. [L. sexus] Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012 sex (seks) 1. The biologic character or quality that distinguishes male and female from one another as expressed by analysis of the individual's gonadal, morphologic (internal and external), chromosomal, and hormonal characteristics.

sex biological quality distinguishing male and female, expressed by the presence of two X (i.e. female) or X + Y (i.e. male) chromosomes



chromosomal sex , genetic sex sex as determined by the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.
gonadal sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the gonadal tissue present (ovarian or testicular).
morphological sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the morphology of the external genitals.
phenotypic sex the phenotypic manifestations of sex determined by endocrine influences.

Androgen insensitivity syndrome means that people with XY chromosomes have vaginas. There are people with XXY, XYY, XXX etc. There are genetic mosaics who have both XX and XY chromosomes - and often but not always have ambiguous genitals.

Sex is not clear cut. Intersex shows us this.
Therefore you have a conventional definition, but given that this is not universally accepted, it is necessary for us to look at alternatives in the context of this thread.

All things 'determining' sex in almost all of the literature that I have encountered use 'in general', therefore acknowledging that there are anomalies, and that the definition is not perfect as it does not account for these.

Thank you for proving my point. Sex is not as simple as you tried to make it out to be.

There are at least four different definitions there...

Its not actually seriously contested though, there is no danger of the definition changing any time, ever.

Either use the current definition or stop spamming the thread with your unpleasant transphobic comments.

The definition is what it is. This thread does not exist for him to complain that he doesn't like the definition. If he doesn't like it, he can start another thread where he can complain about it.

That is their gender that is listed as a simple courtesy. Their actual sex remains unchanged. I'm sure you're not so stupid as to think that what it says on someone's driving licence is relevant to a biological fact.

...

Sex: the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual; also the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion

sex
1. the fundamental distinction, found in most species of animals and plants, based on the type of gametes produced by the individual or the category to which the individual fits on the basis of that criterion. Ova, or macrogametes, are produced by the female, and spermatozoa, or microgametes, are produced by the male. The union of these distinctive germ cells results in the production of a new individual in sexual reproduction.

sex biological quality distinguishing male and female, expressed by the presence of two X (i.e. female) or X + Y (i.e. male) chromosomes

chromosomal sex , genetic sex sex as determined by the presence of the XX (female) or the XY (male) genotype in somatic cells, without regard to phenotypic manifestations.
gonadal sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the gonadal tissue present (ovarian or testicular).
morphological sex that part of the phenotypic sex that is determined by the morphology of the external genitals.
phenotypic sex the phenotypic manifestations of sex determined by endocrine influences.

yes it is.

If you think those definitions were complicated or in any way contradictory, you're simply out of your depth in this discussion I'm afraid.

... all of which say exactly the same thing.

- Not a real medical dictionary, but here is 1 definition.


This coincides with the definition above.



This does not match your first definition. Note the added criterion (emphasized by me).



Same as above. Not just gonads. = different definition.



Look a third definition! - this one only has 1 factor i.e. chromosomes. Gametes, morphology, hormones etc, are all disregarded here.



If you can't realize that here you have identified multiple ways of determining sex then you should work on your reading comprehension skills as they are talk about different kinds of biological sex. So clearly there is not just 1 set definition.

Stop repeating yourself. This thread is not here for you to complain you don't like the biological definition of sex as given by every single medical dictionary.

If you continue to spam the thread I will be reporting every post to the mods as spam.

and continually bringing up intersex people in a discussion about transgenderism is deeply bigoted. How many times do I need to tell you They're NOT THE SAME THING.

... all of which say exactly the same thing.

Minus the fact that my contention on the definition is relevant to base assumption of the thread. A fact you conveniently keep ignoring because you refuse to actually engage my argument.


I haven't said they are the same. In fact I have continuously had to repeat that they are not because you clearly don't understand what I am saying.

Here I will put it very slowly and simply for you:
1. The 'conventional' definition of sex is either inaccurate or nonexistent (as there lacks to be one single definition for you to give me across multiple sources).
2. Intersex individuals can and do highlight the problems with our current model and definition of biological sex.
3. As biological sex doesn't seem to be merely down to 1 factor, but rather a balancing act of multiple factors sex may be fluid.
4. This is because some 'sex characteristics' are changeable, i.e. morphology, hormone levels, and phenotypes. So if we are balancing these characteristics then when they change the overall 'sum' or status changes too.
5. Therefore any assertion that a transsexual cannot change sex and is therefore is not 'really male/female' is not necessarily accurate.