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Glad you appreciate my use of legal maxims ... maybe we should use the equitable one of regarding what should be done as having been done to remove the word screwed from my post 
. Although now I am going to be quiet, as it was a one off joke and I should stop.
ps Ethereal, I am sure its not that thick.
. Although now I am going to be quiet, as it was a one off joke and I should stop.ps Ethereal, I am sure its not that thick.
Lewis-HuStuJCR
Glad you appreciate my use of legal maxims ... maybe we should use the equitable one of regarding what should be done as having been done to remove the word screwed from my post . Although now I am going to be quiet, as it was a one off joke and I should stop.
ps Ethereal, I am sure its not that thick.
. Although now I am going to be quiet, as it was a one off joke and I should stop.ps Ethereal, I am sure its not that thick.
It is
ellewoods
I would like to respectfully disagree with the spirit of this post!
I think it probably does depend on your provider. I have friends at College of Law and BPP, either starting this year like me or having completed the course last year, and this sort of attitude, attendance work rate simply wouldn't be acceptable - or got away with - at any of our institutions.
I would like to make the point that "blagging" and just passing the LPC is not the point of the course.
We are being trained for a profession, learning skills and vital information to make us good lawyers.
I would be more concerned about how good a lawyer I was going to be if I hadn't worked hard and paid attention during the LPC, rather than being satisfied with managing to drag myself through it on miminal effort.
I think it probably does depend on your provider. I have friends at College of Law and BPP, either starting this year like me or having completed the course last year, and this sort of attitude, attendance work rate simply wouldn't be acceptable - or got away with - at any of our institutions.
I would like to make the point that "blagging" and just passing the LPC is not the point of the course.
We are being trained for a profession, learning skills and vital information to make us good lawyers.
I would be more concerned about how good a lawyer I was going to be if I hadn't worked hard and paid attention during the LPC, rather than being satisfied with managing to drag myself through it on miminal effort.
I'm over a month into my TC at a US firm and have found that the LPC has provided me with nothing that has helped me to become a better lawyer.
Plus, I didn't see the point in working hard for criminal (which I will never use) and property (which I'm not doing during my TC). I spent a lot more time on subjects like Business Law and Practice and Acquisitons and they still weren't of much use. Acquisitions was probably the best of the bunch and helped me a little during my first week when I was put on a small private acquisition with my supervisor.
I still think the LPC is pretty useless. Some of the skills are helpful (drafting, advocacy to give you experience of standing in front of people and presenting) but the vast majority of it is BS IMO.
That's what I have heard from everyone I have spoken to already doing a TC aswell...
Whilst this may be the case (the LPC being pretty useless in your current role- let's not ignore the fact that your role/employment MAY change), I too was somewhat disturbed that you had such a blasé approach to what amounts to a PROFESSIONAL (and as close to practical as possible) course.
It pains me to hear and see this sort of indifference and leaves me asking the question "WHY"?
Even today, 15 years into my employment (non-legal, obviously) with vast practical experience behind me, I relish every "practical", professional course I attend. And I make no secret of the fact that I am grossly disillusioned with the my job - but on a professional & practical level I am almost always enthused by "practical" courses and the opportunity to practice and learn. BUT, SADLY, I DO FREQUENTLY SEE PEOPLE DISPLAYING INDIFFERENCE AND LACK OF INTEREST - EVEN AT RECRUIT LEVEL... AND TIME AND AGAIN I HAVE TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION - WHY?
Why? Have these people perhaps made the wrong choice in occupation? Far from making me "angry" that these people are wasting opportunity etc. - it actually leaves me feeling somewhat sorry for them - that they're in a role that they don't find fulfilling... and when it is at such a formative and early stage that feeling is so much the stronger.
Having said all of that, I have read that many of the larger law firms are dissatisfied with the nature and content of the LPC - the argument being that it is failing to fulfil their needs (preparing their staff for their role) - but regardless of that, I still think there is something amiss when someone has such a throwaway attitude to it all.
It pains me to hear and see this sort of indifference and leaves me asking the question "WHY"?
Even today, 15 years into my employment (non-legal, obviously) with vast practical experience behind me, I relish every "practical", professional course I attend. And I make no secret of the fact that I am grossly disillusioned with the my job - but on a professional & practical level I am almost always enthused by "practical" courses and the opportunity to practice and learn. BUT, SADLY, I DO FREQUENTLY SEE PEOPLE DISPLAYING INDIFFERENCE AND LACK OF INTEREST - EVEN AT RECRUIT LEVEL... AND TIME AND AGAIN I HAVE TO ASK THE SAME QUESTION - WHY?
Why? Have these people perhaps made the wrong choice in occupation? Far from making me "angry" that these people are wasting opportunity etc. - it actually leaves me feeling somewhat sorry for them - that they're in a role that they don't find fulfilling... and when it is at such a formative and early stage that feeling is so much the stronger.
Having said all of that, I have read that many of the larger law firms are dissatisfied with the nature and content of the LPC - the argument being that it is failing to fulfil their needs (preparing their staff for their role) - but regardless of that, I still think there is something amiss when someone has such a throwaway attitude to it all.
Lewis-HuStuJCR
That's what I have heard from everyone I have spoken to already doing a TC aswell...
I've actually heard the opposite from pretty much everyone I've spoken to about the LPC. They all said they really enjoyed the year and felt it did help to prepare them for life as a trainee solicitor. I obviously can't speak from personal experience yet, but perhaps it depends on the firm more than anything.
chalks
Possibly a little early into your legal career to be making such a judgment, non? Just a thought...
My thoughts exactly.
And like Dragon, I have several friends on TCs at the moment - and some qualified, plus 2 paralegals who did the LPC - and they all value what they did and gained from the LPC.
Excellent post from FiremanJohn as well, I fully agree
Hiya dragon 1706 - I wonder which small group you're in here?
I'm mostly enjoying the LPC so far. Some bits are better than others, but overall I'd say it's more interesting and taught in a much better way than the undergrad course. Property isn't great but then I didn't like Land much at undergrad level either, and I find the whole transaction thing fairly horrific! But Business and Litigation have both been pretty good, and skills are very useful. Even accounts isn't as scary as I'd thought it would be! Best wait till assessments start to see what I think then though!
I'm mostly enjoying the LPC so far. Some bits are better than others, but overall I'd say it's more interesting and taught in a much better way than the undergrad course. Property isn't great but then I didn't like Land much at undergrad level either, and I find the whole transaction thing fairly horrific! But Business and Litigation have both been pretty good, and skills are very useful. Even accounts isn't as scary as I'd thought it would be! Best wait till assessments start to see what I think then though!
chalks
Possibly a little early into your legal career to be making such a judgment, non? Just a thought...
Perhaps, but isn't the LPC supposed to provide you with vital skills that are helpful from the moment you enter practice? I've barely used anything I've learnt. I'm not saying the LPC is completely useless, on the contrary I think it could be formulated in such a way as to provide a valuable vocational training experience before entering a law firm. BUT it's crap in its current incarnation. The Law Society should a. shorten it and b. tailor it to specific types of firms e.g. large commercial, high street with criminal etc.
Fireman John - I enjoy attending training sessions at work. I went to one last week on financing and found it very worthwhile an enjoyable as I can see how I might use that knowledge at some point in the future.
What I don't find enjoyable is sitting in a classroom for 2 hours filling out forms that show me how to process someone at the police station from the point of view of a custody officer. What's the point?!
If you're going to argue for the use of vocational training, it should be at least relevant to the area that you're working in. Having 1/2 of the LPC attended by everyone, from budding social care solicitor to wannabe Magic Circle M&A transactional lawyer, is a waste of everyone's time.
This is the argument put forward by the large firms disatisfied with the LPC - relevancy... However, the LPC, as I see it, is part of the formative training in much the same way as the LLB/CPE is... you study elements that will quite possibly have nothing to do with the field of Law you end up working in... And further to that, as I understand it - the LPC is the "practical" element of legal training whereas the LLB/CPE is the "theory" element. It is simply a part of the process - albeit at a more "professional", formal level.
The key point with the LPC is you've taken that formal step to becoming a professional... you've crossed the line.
In terms of training you for your particular field of Law - I assumed that was the point of the TC... up until then you're being equipped for a career in Law in it's widest possible sense...
Again, from my point of view - I can only see this as good and right and proper... and sensible and prudent! I have a drinking pal (well, when I was what I'd call myself a drinker!) who worked for 20 odd years in Commercial Law for a multinational construction company - he was made redundant... didn't work for a few years - last year he got a job in a local, small town solicitors doing 3 days a week in Conveyancing... An extreme example, I appreciate that - but the point is, nothing is guaranteed to be forever.
The key point with the LPC is you've taken that formal step to becoming a professional... you've crossed the line.
In terms of training you for your particular field of Law - I assumed that was the point of the TC... up until then you're being equipped for a career in Law in it's widest possible sense...
Again, from my point of view - I can only see this as good and right and proper... and sensible and prudent! I have a drinking pal (well, when I was what I'd call myself a drinker!) who worked for 20 odd years in Commercial Law for a multinational construction company - he was made redundant... didn't work for a few years - last year he got a job in a local, small town solicitors doing 3 days a week in Conveyancing... An extreme example, I appreciate that - but the point is, nothing is guaranteed to be forever.
Fireman John
In terms of training you for your particular field of Law - I assumed that was the point of the TC... up until then you're being equipped for a career in Law in it's widest possible sense...
Exactly.
There is no point doing a specialised LPC for a Magic Circle uber-lawyer or whatever, if you then go and have kids (or your wife does
) and you decide to switch to something which allows you to refocus your priorities.You have to be trained to be well rounded on the LPC, for the same reasons you do more than one department on your training contract.
I know I wouldn't feel comfortable being trained in one area - we are already learning after a mere 6 weeks on the LPC how much the areas overlap. We need knowledge of company accounts for business law, for family law when looking at a family business in a divorce case, you need to think about property law when taking over a new company - the examples are endless.
Being open minded and willing to learn is a vital skill in a lawyer - not all this "ooh I want to be Magic Circle how dare you impose police station rubbish on me" attitude.
Vitriol01
If you're going to argue for the use of vocational training, it should be at least relevant to the area that you're working in. Having 1/2 of the LPC attended by everyone, from budding social care solicitor to wannabe Magic Circle M&A transactional lawyer, is a waste of everyone's time.
How do you know what will be relevant if you are not lucky enough to secure a TC prior to the LPC?
Its all very well being a "budding" X laywer, but what if the options in the end are being a Y or Z lawyer?
Also the basics are the same in every discipline, makes perfect sense to have some background material with electives.
Hey guys, glad to hear youre all surviving on the dreaded lpc! you will all get through it! just think, youve been there 6 weeks now already! itll soon be christmas and then the light is definately at the end of the tunnel. and its worth it! im doing my tc now and yeah things are alot different in practice but ive used loads of the skills ive learnt already - its all one big learning process anyway - thats what its meant to be like...
and as for that comment somewhere in this thread about property law and how it is useless for someone who is not planning on doing a seat in it...well ive never heard anything more ridiculous!!! im doing my conveyancing seat first, at the mo, primarily because property law touches on EVERYTHING!!!!!
and as for that comment somewhere in this thread about property law and how it is useless for someone who is not planning on doing a seat in it...well ive never heard anything more ridiculous!!! im doing my conveyancing seat first, at the mo, primarily because property law touches on EVERYTHING!!!!!
ellewoods
How do you know what will be relevant if you are not lucky enough to secure a TC prior to the LPC?
Its all very well being a "budding" X laywer, but what if the options in the end are being a Y or Z lawyer?
Its all very well being a "budding" X laywer, but what if the options in the end are being a Y or Z lawyer?
That's exactly it. Loads of people on my LPC course haven't got TCs yet and therefore don't know what type of firm they'll be going to. Plus of course people have to have the option to change disciplines later in their careers without doing another LPC or something crazy.
Alocin - I'm enjoying the LPC as well, or at least apart from revenue! BLP is definitely my favourite of the compulsory subjects, but I really enjoy the skills parts of the course as well. Though I haven't watched my advocacy DVD yet...
dragon_1706
That's exactly it. Loads of people on my LPC course haven't got TCs yet and therefore don't know what type of firm they'll be going to. Plus of course people have to have the option to change disciplines later in their careers without doing another LPC or something crazy.
Alocin - I'm enjoying the LPC as well, or at least apart from revenue! BLP is definitely my favourite of the compulsory subjects, but I really enjoy the skills parts of the course as well. Though I haven't watched my advocacy DVD yet...
Alocin - I'm enjoying the LPC as well, or at least apart from revenue! BLP is definitely my favourite of the compulsory subjects, but I really enjoy the skills parts of the course as well. Though I haven't watched my advocacy DVD yet...
Advocacy DVD? Is that the one featuring Jeremy Paxman interviewing Michael Howard?
Happy viewings.
SSU Ambassador
Advocacy DVD? Is that the one featuring Jeremy Paxman interviewing Michael Howard?
Happy viewings.
Happy viewings.
We all had to do an advocacy session during the foundation course and were filmed on DVD. The idea is that we go away and watch it to learn from our mistakes, but I haven't plucked up the courage yet!
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