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    If a single member of an on call team being off sick causes absolute chaos, and if everyone being present means people just about manage to get everything done, maybe that means the team needs another doctor!
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    If a single member of an on call team being off sick causes absolute chaos, and if everyone being present means people just about manage to get everything done, maybe that means the team needs another doctor!
    What do you suggest scrapping to fund an additional doctor's wages? And of course say you add someone and max out an over stretched budget and someone is sick, how would you pay for a Locum then?
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    (Original post by Quilverine)
    What do you suggest scrapping to fund an additional doctor's wages? And of course say you add someone and max out an over stretched budget and someone is sick, how would you pay for a Locum then?
    The billions spent on the Health and Social Care Act 2012 might have been better spent on actual patient care services. Just a thought.

    But that would require an actual desire to improve the national health service rather than an ideological drive to undermine it.

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    (Original post by Quilverine)
    What do you suggest scrapping to fund an additional doctor's wages? And of course say you add someone and max out an over stretched budget and someone is sick, how would you pay for a Locum then?
    Yes, there are finite finances within the NHS. But don't believe that something needs to be scrapped, the funds are available we just have an incredible amount of waste in the system.

    It has become an inefficient colossus from the running/administration perspective. There are some areas where multiple people are being hired to do one job.

    However, it would appear that someone thinks it's quicker to make savings by employing less of the more expensive people for each shift. (I.e the doctors)

    Why do locums need to be paid £50-100 per hour? It would be far cheaper to hire full time members of staff rather than let the locum bill skyrocket.




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    (Original post by carcinoma)
    It has become an inefficient colossus from the running/administration perspective. There are some areas where multiple people are being hired to do one job.
    I'm not sure whether you're referring to administrative or clinical staff but as a medical student on surgical placements I remember that whenever I was in theatre there were loads of people in scrubs floating about in the background (now I know they're called ODPs). This didn't happen just once or twice but pretty much every time I was in theatre I noticed that apart from the ODP/nurse who was scrubbed in and handing instruments to the surgeon, there were at least another 2 (usually 3 or 4) who were doing absolutely nothing about 95% of the time. Even when it was simple gynaecological or ophthalmological procedures this was the case. Now I'm only a medical student so have been in theatre a total of maybe 20-25 times and I don't know much about the ins and outs of how surgical theatres work, but it seemed to me that all these people weren't actually needed. Do we really need 2-3 ODPs in theatre helping out on a cataract phako or a diagnostic pelvic laparoscopy? (on top of the one who's scrubbed in that is)
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    (Original post by carcinoma)
    Yes, there are finite finances within the NHS. But don't believe that something needs to be scrapped, the funds are available we just have an incredible amount of waste in the system. It has become an inefficient colossus from the running/administration perspective. There are some areas where multiple people are being hired to do one job. However, it would appear that someone thinks it's quicker to make savings by employing less of the more expensive people for each shift. (I.e the doctors) Why do locums need to be paid £50-100 per hour? It would be far cheaper to hire full time members of staff rather than let the locum bill skyrocket. Posted from TSR Mobile

    (Original post by Democracy)
    The billions spent on the Health and Social Care Act 2012 might have been better spent on actual patient care services. Just a thought. But that would require an actual desire to improve the national health service rather than an ideological drive to undermine it. Posted from TSR Mobile
    Oh I completely see where both of you are coming from. It's the "just hire more people" isn't really a solution until all the wasteful and odd things that drain finances are addressed. The NHS is such an amazing concept and it really could be the absolute best healthcare system in the world but tightly controlling the world's biggest staff body and all the resources each of them need to do their job is a hell of a task.

    With regard to the hospital floaters. They might be in training? I have been a lurker in scrubs whilst cataracts are removed because I was learning about the procedure from another spare pair of hands. Then when a registrar took over the surgery there were two consultants not doing anything because it went smoothly. Effectively there were 4 extra people in that room, 2 medical students came in to watch too. Training does tie up personnel that could be actively working but it's an essential part of development.
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    (Original post by Quilverine)

    With regard to the hospital floaters. They might be in training? I have been a lurker in scrubs whilst cataracts are removed because I was learning about the procedure from another spare pair of hands. Then when a registrar took over the surgery there were two consultants not doing anything because it went smoothly. Effectively there were 4 extra people in that room, 2 medical students came in to watch too. Training does tie up personnel that could be actively working but it's an essential part of development.
    I am almost certain that on those occasions they were not medical students or trainee docs. Some of them could possibly have been training to be ODPs although I highly doubt it.
    I actually have mentioned this to several colleagues before so it's not just thread that made me think about it.
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    (Original post by Quilverine)
    What do you suggest scrapping to fund an additional doctor's wages? And of course say you add someone and max out an over stretched budget and someone is sick, how would you pay for a Locum then?
    Trident maybe? Banking bailouts? Dyson fans on every ward in the hospital? One of the manager's manager's manager's managers?

    Take your pic.

    If you're going to have a ****ing NHS then you need to ****ing pay for it.
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    Dyson fans on every ward in the hospital?.
    lol - what's the deal with this? This is something I've noticed recently. There seems to have been a massive purchase of dyson airblade fans on the wards. I'm pretty sure the standing units are about £300 a pop.
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    (Original post by shiggydiggy)
    lol - what's the deal with this? This is something I've noticed recently. There seems to have been a massive purchase of dyson airblade fans on the wards. I'm pretty sure the standing units are about £300 a pop.
    They're 200 each and they are everywhere at every bed.
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    (Original post by The Only Rivo)
    I'm not sure whether you're referring to administrative or clinical staff but as a medical student on surgical placements I remember that whenever I was in theatre there were loads of people in scrubs floating about in the background (now I know they're called ODPs). This didn't happen just once or twice but pretty much every time I was in theatre I noticed that apart from the ODP/nurse who was scrubbed in and handing instruments to the surgeon, there were at least another 2 (usually 3 or 4) who were doing absolutely nothing about 95% of the time. Even when it was simple gynaecological or ophthalmological procedures this was the case. Now I'm only a medical student so have been in theatre a total of maybe 20-25 times and I don't know much about the ins and outs of how surgical theatres work, but it seemed to me that all these people weren't actually needed. Do we really need 2-3 ODPs in theatre helping out on a cataract phako or a diagnostic pelvic laparoscopy? (on top of the one who's scrubbed in that is)
    Some are ODPs, some are scrub nurses. The difference between them is mostly irrelevant.

    You have to have one in each theatre, to act as a "circulator" or runner - essentially someone to fetch and open any extra kit that is required onto the sterile tray of the scrub nurse. There's also usually another one who is the anaesthetist's assistant. They may not do anything most of the time but we need them there in case something goes wrong, and they also do a lot of setting up/dismantling kit in between cases. Then there are usually a couple extra for each theatre complex who will do relief for breaks for everyone (giving the staff in each theatre a tea break, a lunch break and an afternoon break takes up a fair bit of time!) and there may be some students.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    Some are ODPs, some are scrub nurses. The difference between them is mostly irrelevant.

    You have to have one in each theatre, to act as a "circulator" or runner - essentially someone to fetch and open any extra kit that is required onto the sterile tray of the scrub nurse. There's also usually another one who is the anaesthetist's assistant. They may not do anything most of the time but we need them there in case something goes wrong, and they also do a lot of setting up/dismantling kit in between cases. Then there are usually a couple extra for each theatre complex who will do relief for breaks for everyone (giving the staff in each theatre a tea break, a lunch break and an afternoon break takes up a fair bit of time!) and there may be some students.
    Thanks for the explanation. Maybe I was a bit harsh.
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    (Original post by The Only Rivo)
    Thanks for the explanation. Maybe I was a bit harsh.
    You'd not be the first person to think it - when I was doing obs, so many ladies commented on how many people there were in theatre - even in the middle of the night when it's literally just essential personnel, there's an anaesthetist, their ODP, an obstetrician (usually 2), a scrub nurse/ODP, a circulating nurse/ODP, a midwife and often a paediatrician. A lot of people don't realise just how many people are needed to run a theatre! There are sometimes more people in the daytime, and I do wonder if they are all essential, but there are other inefficiencies in theatre which are vastly more irritating.
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    I was under the impression those scrubbed up guys milling sround doing nothing were the anaesthetists...

    *runs for cover*
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    (Original post by hoonosewot)
    I was under the impression those scrubbed up guys milling sround doing nothing were the anaesthetists...

    *runs for cover*
    We're not usually scrubbed. And yeah, we don't do much if everything is going smoothly. But it doesn't always do that...
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    Back on topic, at least people get a locum in most of the time.

    First night in the job (black Wednesday no less), one of the surgical F1s at my hospital had to cover the whole of back of house (~200 patients) and the admissions unit (of a tertiary centre) completely alone.

    Why? Because the nurse practitioner who normally helps called in sick 5 minutes before the shift was due to start, and the SHO who was meant to be on that night had never actually been hired. No-one in HR noticed.

    That night was a lawsuit waiting to happen.
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    We could stop paying £250,000 to train doctors to only make them spend their time doing menial tasks like taking blood.
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    (Original post by shiggydiggy)
    lol - what's the deal with this? This is something I've noticed recently. There seems to have been a massive purchase of dyson airblade fans on the wards. I'm pretty sure the standing units are about £300 a pop.
    easy to clean vs reg fan
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    (Original post by Ciaran88)
    If a single member of an on call team being off sick causes absolute chaos, and if everyone being present means people just about manage to get everything done, maybe that means the team needs another doctor!
    alternatively

    -day teams need to get their work done rather than slinking off the wards and hiding / and sign the damn symptomatic relief part of the drug chart / prescribe a range of relevant PRNs on the PRN part of the drug chart

    - nursing staff need to be supported to undertake extended roles that ought to be core ( cannulation + venepuncture / male urinary catherisation / blood gasses / 12 leads ) / have PGDs to use .
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    (Original post by User1634027)
    easy to clean vs reg fan
    Are they actually though? They seem to take air in through the base and then blow it out at the margins of the "loop". Surely just about anything could be hiding in that base?
 
 
 
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