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Davij038
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#1
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To people voting ukip or Tory what do you make if this video expressing the views of libertarian comedian doug stanhope on immigration to the US and UK.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQQgb5hXQGU

I think it sums up how ridiculous from a market right wing perpective it is.
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william walker
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As John Major says it the argument is numbers, numbers, numbers.

If there was only 100,000 people immigrating to Britain every year it wouldn't be an issue. 500,000 people is an issue. Plus over 200,000 people emigrating every year it mean a population churn of over 700,000 people a year. You simply can't hope to maintain any kind of cultural stability with these numbers for a decade or more.

UKIP's main argument is about sovereignty and control of our territory, currently we can't control our own borders because we are in the EU, we can't curtail immigration or emigration because we are in the EU. This is an argument which most people think is correct and logical, that a nation state to be so must control its sovereign borders and territory, not a foreign bureaucracy.
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william walker
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I do agree with the man in the video the market argument against immigration or emigration is non-existent.
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nixy49
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(Original post by Davij038)
To people voting ukip or Tory what do you make if this video expressing the views of libertarian comedian doug stanhope on immigration to the US and UK.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQQgb5hXQGU

I think it sums up how ridiculous from a market right wing perpective it is.
It's the socialist idea of printing / creating 'money' from nothing and giving it away to all an' sundry that's the problem. Stop the 'printing' and open the 'borders'. People just go to where the 'money' is.
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Rakas21
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Personally I've no massive objection to free movement from western Europe, the Anglosphere and developed Asia (countries with a GDP per capita above $30k) with a few small caveats (proof of English and Maths, no criminal record, a fee of say £10k) however i do have sympathy with some of the low skilled arguments from eastern Europe, though our main problem is asylum and Muslim (non-EU) immigration.
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yo radical one
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Doug Stanhope is a libertarian


He believes that welfare should be abolished, the market should be deregulated and that the government should be totally cut down to little more than a courtroom and a small standing military for defense (if that).


People on the left would go crazy if he were ever to be elected
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saayagain
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I am a left winger and against immigration.

Paradoxical or logical?
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yo radical one
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(Original post by saayagain)
I am a left winger and against immigration.

Paradoxical or logical?
In some ways in makes sense.


Migration is the free flow of labour, restricting the free flow of labour sounds like something which a left winger would support.
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The Juan
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(Original post by Davij038)
To people voting ukip or Tory what do you make if this video expressing the views of libertarian comedian doug stanhope on immigration to the US and UK.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQQgb5hXQGU

I think it sums up how ridiculous from a market right wing perpective it is.
You fail to understand the concept of 'controlled immigration' rather than 'anti-immigration'. Clearly you are a bit backwards and behind so I am sorry for you.
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The Juan
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(Original post by saayagain)
I am a left winger and against immigration.

Paradoxical or logical?
That is complete bull****. Left wing ideology is pro-EU and supports the free-movement of migrants. Nice try
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saayagain
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(Original post by yo radical one)
In some ways in makes sense.


Migration is the free flow of labour, restricting the free flow of labour sounds like something which a left winger would support.
So why are left parties defending immigration and free movement of labour? Is it because they are not truly left?
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william walker
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(Original post by saayagain)
So why are left parties defending immigration and free movement of labour? Is it because they are not truly left?
Because they want to remain in the EU.
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william walker
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(Original post by yo radical one)
Doug Stanhope is a libertarian


He believes that welfare should be abolished, the market should be deregulated and that the government should be totally cut down to little more than a courtroom and a small standing military for defense (if that).


People on the left would go crazy if he were ever to be elected
I agree with his views on the size of the government. I am not a Libertarians, I am a Protestant Classical Liberal, so I support strengthening the the state and limiting the government as much as possible. I support things like voluntary taxation.
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saayagain
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(Original post by The Juan)
That is complete bull****. Left wing ideology is pro-EU and supports the free-movement of migrants. Nice try
And yet I exist.

Left wing ideology has been diluted and misguided.

The idea of the EU makes sense but the implementation of this Union has not been a left one. If it was a truly left creation, all facets of government would have been aligned and major economic sectors would have been merged. Instead, EU countries compete with each other and differ in almost every single aspect of government, economy, society, law etc..

If you are a leftist and like the EU you are purely holding onto the notion of the unity. Substance over form needs to be applied to each scenario.

Free movement of labour compounds my point about the lack of alignment. If you can get a job in Britain that pays £5 an hour, you make 4 or 5 times as much as you do in your home nation. Why? Capitalism, wealth accumulation blah blah blah.

Allowing people to move to find a better situation detracts from the real issue of inequality which is part and parcel of capitalism. That's why I don't like free movement of labour. These people run instead of fighting.

This is what the EU should be about. What they do now is add poor countries into the union which allows their poor people to leave and improve their statistics. That's all.

Britian should leave the EU and start a different union. A union based on socialism. Cbb to get into the details but it will require significant changes to current situations.
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Davij038
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(Original post by The Juan)
You fail to understand the concept of 'controlled immigration' rather than 'anti-immigration'.
Much of the tory and ukip right describe themselves as Libertarians. In the US, the US Libertarian party, has views the same as Stanhopes in that there should be open borders and that attempts by the state to stop this highlight coercive force against individual liberty. I ma merely contrasting the difference.


Clearly you are a bit backwards and behind so I am sorry for you.
Well 'the juan' I actually thought life was going pretty well for me, I guess i'll just have to accept that i'll never be a pinnacle of human achievement and intellect such as yourself.
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saayagain
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(Original post by william walker)
Because they want to remain in the EU.
Socialists should seek to leave the EU and create a new union based on a certain level of integration between the member countries. Member countries should be aligned with one and other. Any national policy can only be passed if the majority of the member countries agree.

One united europe. Not this fragmented crapola.
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Davij038
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(Original post by The Juan)
That is complete bull****. Left wing ideology is pro-EU and supports the free-movement of migrants. Nice try
Agreed, that's why deviant Marxists like Thatcher, Charles Clarke and Lord Heseltine support it and why that Socialist Winston Churchill helped create it.
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Davij038
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(Original post by saayagain)

...;51829415].
Completely logical.

There is a great deal of confusion between socialism and liberalism, i'd recommend reading about both if you're confused.


Free movement of people is a liberal proposition which both the authoritarian right and left dislike. Liberals don't like the coercive power of the state and see the individual as the main "actor" if you will in society, (Or at least classical liberalism)
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saayagain
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(Original post by Davij038)
Completely logical.

There is a great deal of confusion between socialism and liberalism, i'd recommend reading about both if you're confused.


Free movement of people is a liberal proposition which both the authoritarian right and left dislike. Liberals don't like the coercive power of the state and see the individual as the main "actor" if you will in society, (Or at least classical liberalism)
Yeah I knew that. I just said what I said to stimulate debate.

The world is not ready for free movement of labour. When the conditions are right then ok, fair enough.
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nixy49
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Nobody discusses land 'ownership', which is a shame because this is the crux..... over & above the left / right thing.
Once people used land to produce wealth for trade..... then, one day, guy A tells another guy B HE (guy A) is the owner of the land and must pay rent.
This fundamental wrong had perpetuated to this day...... and no one questions it. In much the same way other massive wrongs weren't / aren't questioned.
Image if land 'ownership' was banned / ignored worldwide.
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