Was Hitler morally 'wrong?' Watch

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Bumblebee3
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#61
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Those discussing the Iraq war might be interested to know this: There are at least 5 other countries/regeimes generally considered to be more of a threat to the rest of the world and their own people than Saddam's Iraq. I think although the supposed intention of ridding the Iraqi people of a ruthless leader is admirable, it was only a useful propaganda by-product in the minds of the greedy politicians who instingnated the war. Look at Iraq now, no water, no electricity - even saddam provided these things after the 1st war. They've crashed in and left the place with another kind of sickness.
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Unregistered
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#62
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how many more people would have been murdered brutally as a result of Saddam's regime in ten years time? You say that there are five other regimes currently employed by other states, how do you choose which of those to enter and rid the people from such repression? I think you should seriously consider what you say when you suggest that the war in Iraq was a 'by-product in the minds of the greedy politicians' - the majority of politicians in the british parliament were actually AGAINST the war. Even still, I think that those that were in favour of war had the Iraqi peoples interest at heart. I think that we must understand that any war is going to cause the loss of life, but this is a short-term consequence which by far outweighs the neglect and barbarism that the people of such rogue states would suffer from in the long-term...
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Unregistered
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#63
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[Quote) The fact is we live in a G-dless society so people will simply decide for themselves what is right or wrong, which is fundamentally flawed.


Why do you say that people deciding for themselves what is right and wrong is flawed? This is an increasingly secular society and yet most people manage to follow a non-religious but working moral code. I am interested that some of you have so much faith in ‘God’. Why do you need to be supported? Can you not accept death without the promise of heaven; can you not accept pain without the promise of reward? These beliefs have been exploited since time was and have caused an unbelievable amount of suffering. How much have the oppressed in every society endured because the people who exploited them promised them supernatural rewards?

Much of what eager Christians quote to me I recognize as being the writing of Paul. One man who spread his own understanding of the teachings of Jesus. Had one of Jesus’ brothers been the talented public speaker, people would have followed, lived for, died for and exploited *his* good ideas. I approve of much of the Christian morality but would like to think that a secular society can uphold its values without the need for such control.
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It'sPhil...
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(Original post by Unregistered)
Why do you say that people deciding for themselves what is right and wrong is flawed?
Err...maybe because some people may think it is 'right' to kill as many people as they can, or burn buildings, or steal stuff, or...(repeat to fade) They cannot be left to themselves to decide whether their actions are 'right'
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Unregistered
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#65
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#65
it depends upon which ethical theory you use to define whether an action is right or wrong...
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Unregistered
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#66
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(Original post by It'sPhil...)
Err...maybe because some people may think it is 'right' to kill as many people as they can, or burn buildings, or steal stuff, or...(repeat to fade) They cannot be left to themselves to decide whether their actions are 'right'
Of course, but many people don't kill or steal or (repeat to fade). Surely you're not implying that everyone who doesn't believe in God has homocidal/clepto tedencies? Consider also how many deaths have been caused by religious/religion related wars and disputes. If by saying that people can't be left to themselves to decide what's right you mean that the law should intervene, I agree. I think the forming a legal system and a reasonable means to implement said system by a democratic society is a good step towards giving power back to the people and away from religious institutions where is vulnerable to abuse.
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#67
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good point made from above. I think the development of the legal system is enough to refute the persons claims that people who do not believe in good are nutters.
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sas104
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#68
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I'd just like to back up the point made earlier in the thread. Everyone talks about what Hitler did to the Jews but very few people discuss the extent to which Stalin went to secure his own power. Stalin is thought about as a 'good guy' because he helped to defeat Hitler. Stalin once said 'One death is a tragedy, a million deaths is simply a statistic.'

I'd also like to say that everyone concentrates on the negative aspects of the Nazi regime and forgets the many good things that happened in Germany at that time. The building of a secure infrastructure and the motivation of the youth to a common goal. Although the Hitler Youth aimed to prepare boys for war we could learn a lot from it as it united young people and made them fitter and healthier - something we could definitely benefit from in this age of computers.
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Unregistered
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#69
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(Original post by Unregistered)
good point made from above. I think the development of the legal system is enough to refute the persons claims that people who do not believe in good are nutters.
Thanks for the support. Anyone who thinks that people who don't believe in God have maniac tendencies must live in fear because the majority of British people do not practice Christianity.
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Vienna
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#70
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while free speech should be welcomed, OPEN DENIAL OF GENOCIDE is a serious CRIMINAL offence in several EU states and im surprised to see that no MODERATION has taken place.
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Vienna
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#71
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(Original post by Haz)
Those discussing the Iraq war might be interested to know this: There are at least 5 other countries/regeimes generally considered to be more of a threat to the rest of the world and their own people than Saddam's Iraq. I think although the supposed intention of ridding the Iraqi people of a ruthless leader is admirable, it was only a useful propaganda by-product in the minds of the greedy politicians who instingnated the war. Look at Iraq now, no water, no electricity - even saddam provided these things after the 1st war. They've crashed in and left the place with another kind of sickness.

can we have the 5?
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Vienna
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#72
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(Original post by Tednol)
'Unregistered' you say Blair and Bush were wrong to attack Iraq. Just a point, but would it have been any less wrong to have stood back and watched as Saddam continued to make thousands of his people disappear (eg be sentenced to death without a trial) each and every year? Or maybe you are cool with that. After all, we would have heard jack **** about it as the people who fathers, mothers, sons and daughters Saddam was murdering could not voice their discontent or they too would find themselves dead.

As regards oil, oh please. That is a dead argument and it takes little more than common sense to figure out why. Iraqi was very happily meeting OPEC oil production levels. World prices were stable. The US has huge reserve in Alaska. And Russia, now a ally, keeps finding oil in Siberia. And then there is Saudi where oil fields are found regularly.

The US couldn't go into Iraqi and suddenly turn the taps on full. OPEC would not have been happy and compared to OPEC, Iraqi reserves are small. Unless the US is keen on invading all the other Petroleum Exporting Countries they barely scratch the surface. Oil prices have moved very little since the war ended.

Ed

reasonably sound.
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Vienna
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#73
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(Original post by Unregistered)
Hitler was gay, according to some theories.
most 'great' leaders are...
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LH
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#74
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(Original post by vienna95)
most 'great' leaders are...
like Elton John
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#75
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I hate to look for any justification for Hitler's leadership, but I kind of see the eutopia he was after. A few hundred years down the line and all the human race would be perfect intelligent strong and the terribleness of what it took to get there would be remembered as only history.

However, his idea of perfect is not the same as mine; blond hair blue eyes, no Jews all that to me is complete rubbish.
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Empedocles
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#76
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(Original post by lala)
On the Night Of The Long Knives in 1934 when the SA leaders were disposed of a lot of them were apparently found in the middle of a gay orgy. So he wouldnt have been the only Nazi who wasnt into playing it straight, as it were.
Quite right. Ernst Rohme, leader of the Sturmabteilung, was gay. Homosexuality was also prevalent among the freikorps.
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lala
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#77
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(Original post by Tednol)
'Unregistered' you say Blair and Bush were wrong to attack Iraq. Just a point, but would it have been any less wrong to have stood back and watched as Saddam continued to make thousands of his people disappear (eg be sentenced to death without a trial) each and every year? Or maybe you are cool with that. After all, we would have heard jack **** about it as the people who fathers, mothers, sons and daughters Saddam was murdering could not voice their discontent or they too would find themselves dead.

As regards oil, oh please. That is a dead argument and it takes little more than common sense to figure out why. Iraqi was very happily meeting OPEC oil production levels. World prices were stable. The US has huge reserve in Alaska. And Russia, now a ally, keeps finding oil in Siberia. And then there is Saudi where oil fields are found regularly.

The US couldn't go into Iraqi and suddenly turn the taps on full. OPEC would not have been happy and compared to OPEC, Iraqi reserves are small. Unless the US is keen on invading all the other Petroleum Exporting Countries they barely scratch the surface. Oil prices have moved very little since the war ended.

Ed
Dead argument my a**e.
Iraq may have been meeting production levels but that hardly means that production couldnt be improved, and that Bush wouldnt want access to potentially huge resources. The reserves in Alaska are not going to last the US forever- it cannot rely on its own oil resources indefinitely with consumption at so high a level, and besides, there is enough domestic controversy over the issue of drilling for oil in wildernesses to cause plenty of trouble. You'd have to be a complete idiot to think the situation in Saudi Arabia is stable and not cause for concern to the US- if it were to go fundamentalist theres a good chance that the US might be having to look elsewhere for its oil. The Bush advisors arent stupid (I know some people might want to disagree on this one!) and they'll be aware of the Saudi risks, hence want to have access to Iraqi oil.
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Unregistered
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#78
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Possibly, the idea of morality is based more on the words of scriptures/major religions and conscience, as opposed to wat is considered to be socially correct. Based on that, things are generally wrong or right based on christian/religious beliefs and have been right/wrong since them early years and do not change even if society does. And to some extent, our innate/conscience beliefs play a strong part. Therefore, in hitlers day the majority of society was brainwashed/pissed off enough to ignore their conscience/religion etc...

that make sense?
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NIk
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#79
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"When you kill 10 people it is a crime.
When you kill 1 000 000 people it's just mere statistic"
- Joseph Stalin
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Vienna
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#80
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(Original post by NIk)
"When you kill 10 people it is a crime.
When you kill 1 000 000 people it's just mere statistic"
- Joseph Stalin
we've had that about 10 times.
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