High bar ATG back squat to deadlift ratio Watch

snakesnake
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I was just wondering what people's high bar full back squat to conventional deadlift ratios are. The reason I ask of the link between these two is that obviously a lot of the same muscles are used in both.

I've always had a ridiculously low squat relative to the deadlift and after I hit a new deadlift PR just recently, that ratio was thrown even further off (despite a small squat improvement as well). Mine is 70% squat:deadlift, with my deadlift 75kg ahead of my squat. In fact when looking at the absolute differences between the two, there is hardly a competitive level powerlifter out there who has a difference this big (despite the overall figures for both lifts being higher).

Current records in fact show the squat out performing the deadlift in many cases (though I do realize that these figures might be equipped, plus they're not necessarily squatting high bar ATG like I do) http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/44.html

How are you guys?
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In One Ear
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(Original post by snakesnake)
I was just wondering what people's high bar full back squat to conventional deadlift ratios are. The reason I ask of the link between these two is that obviously a lot of the same muscles are used in both.

I've always had a ridiculously low squat relative to the deadlift and after I hit a new deadlift PR just recently, that ratio was thrown even further off (despite a small squat improvement as well). Mine is 70% squat:deadlift, with my deadlift 75kg ahead of my squat. In fact when looking at the absolute differences between the two, there is hardly a competitive level powerlifter out there who has a difference this big (despite the overall figures for both lifts being higher).

Current records in fact show the squat out performing the deadlift in many cases (though I do realize that these figures might be equipped, plus they're not necessarily squatting high bar ATG like I do) http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/44.html

How are you guys?
At the time I pulled a 200kg deadlift I could barely ATG backsquat 100kg*1 high bar so I don't think theres a huge cross-over (I didn't really train squats though).

EDIT: Nice 250kg dead tho mate!
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MindTheGaps
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Numbers?

I've done a 255kg dead and 205kg squat (admittedly, not high-bar), which is also a reasonable difference. But I always found at any point in time either my squat or my deadlift would be improving quickly, but usually not the other, so it's see-sawed a lot. When I first hit a 200kg squat my deadlift was less far ahead, but the squat stalled for a while and the deadlift pulled ahead.

But... I have very good leverages for the deadlift (presumably you're similar?) whereas I don't have nearly so much of an advantage at squat, so it's not really surprising. Also equipment makes a much bigger difference for squat than dead, so if you're not looking at raw numbers you can't really make any meaningful comparison with the elites.
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illusionz
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No powerlifter is going to squat a max high bar atg so it's a pretty meaningless comparison to make.

70% doesn't sound that bad if you really are going atg and quite possibly have better deadlift mechanics.
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snakesnake
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(Original post by illusionz)
No powerlifter is going to squat a max high bar atg so it's a pretty meaningless comparison to make.

70% doesn't sound that bad if you really are going atg and quite possibly have better deadlift mechanics.
That's true, I train more for Olympic weightlifting than for powerlifting, as such the focus is on high bar ATG. However even then when I look at professional weightlifters, their deadlifts aren't really that far ahead of their squats (and for some, they can even out squat their deadlifts).

(Original post by Rinsed)
Numbers?

I've done a 255kg dead and 205kg squat (admittedly, not high-bar), which is also a reasonable difference. But I always found at any point in time either my squat or my deadlift would be improving quickly, but usually not the other, so it's see-sawed a lot. When I first hit a 200kg squat my deadlift was less far ahead, but the squat stalled for a while and the deadlift pulled ahead.

But... I have very good leverages for the deadlift (presumably you're similar?) whereas I don't have nearly so much of an advantage at squat, so it's not really surprising. Also equipment makes a much bigger difference for squat than dead, so if you're not looking at raw numbers you can't really make any meaningful comparison with the elites.
175kg squat, 250kg deadlift.

Yeah I do have good deadlift leverages such as long arms and legs, however those very same long legs give me a disadvantage in the squat. I've always found pulling to come easier for me and I can hit new PRs without putting in as much work as I need to for squats.

Valid point about the raw vs equipped point. However for example we've had a powerlifting challenge (obviously raw) at our gym where the guys who beat me all had squats considerably more than me, however at the same time only one guy out deadlifted me.
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TooEasy123
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If you deadlift with high hips and a slightly rounded back then the chances are your deadlift is gonna be disporportionate compared to your squat

Olympic lifters only really do deads with flat back and low hip starting position. Someone who deadlifts as above will be able to lift considerably less with these mechanics
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snakesnake
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(Original post by TooEasy123)
If you deadlift with high hips and a slightly rounded back then the chances are your deadlift is gonna be disporportionate compared to your squat

Olympic lifters only really do deads with flat back and low hip starting position. Someone who deadlifts as above will be able to lift considerably less with these mechanics
Some might train like that, to mimic the mechanics of the clean.

An example of the contrary is Mart Seim's deadlift of 310kg (he was fourth in the World Championships this year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hafbmu2mV7o

That's still has his hips shooting up relatively quickly, I'd say not too dissimilar to how I do it. He doesn't keep his hips low throughout the lift. Currently he's squatting 353kg with a 330kg deadlift.

Then again some people are just built to squat (I believe it was short legs relative to a long torso), such as this kid:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzT1lY-q-hg
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SmashConcept
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Here's the thing: both kinds of strength sports favour shorter limbed lifters, which is why your ratios don't compare favourably to many elite lifters. Short limbs are better for powerlifting because it helps with two lifts instead of one, and they're just better in general for weightlifting. You'd probably be better off doing PL than WL, because at least you can deadlift, and you'd probably also be better in strongman than either of them. Not saying you should, just that that's how it is.
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snakesnake
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(Original post by SmashConcept)
Here's the thing: both kinds of strength sports favour shorter limbed lifters, which is why your ratios don't compare favourably to many elite lifters. Short limbs are better for powerlifting because it helps with two lifts instead of one, and they're just better in general for weightlifting. You'd probably be better off doing PL than WL, because at least you can deadlift, and you'd probably also be better in strongman than either of them. Not saying you should, just that that's how it is.
I understand your point, however as I'm currently not looking to compete at a serious level then that is not a major consideration for me.

It is very true that shorter limbs are generally an advantage in these sports. If I wanted to combine long limbs and strength, I should probably be throwing the discus (which I have and loved it but it's hard to find places to train for it).

Yet then I look at guys like the 1.98m Velichko Cholakov, 1.97m Behdad Salimi or any one of those insanely long armed discus throwers who bench over 200kg and realize that emphasizing limbs is just an excuse and people have succeeded time and time again despite natural disadvantages.
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Smack
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(Original post by snakesnake)
That's true, I train more for Olympic weightlifting than for powerlifting, as such the focus is on high bar ATG. However even then when I look at professional weightlifters, their deadlifts aren't really that far ahead of their squats (and for some, they can even out squat their deadlifts).
That's because they probably don't train their deadlifts much.
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SmashConcept
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(Original post by snakesnake)
I understand your point, however as I'm currently not looking to compete at a serious level then that is not a major consideration for me.

It is very true that shorter limbs are generally an advantage in these sports. If I wanted to combine long limbs and strength, I should probably be throwing the discus (which I have and loved it but it's hard to find places to train for it).

Yet then I look at guys like the 1.98m Velichko Cholakov, 1.97m Behdad Salimi or any one of those insanely long armed discus throwers who bench over 200kg and realize that emphasizing limbs is just an excuse and people have succeeded time and time again despite natural disadvantages.
Well no, I was going to emphasize that I wasn't telling you to change sports, just that this is the reason your ratio is different. Saying elite discus throwers have "natural disadvantages" is pretty silly, but they are doing a sport they have natural aptitude for. Because they're so talented, you would have to compare their lifts to people like Eric Lilliebridge, James Henderson, Spoto or whoever. And then their arm length manifests itself, because 200 doesn't look so great.

I was thinking about trying out the discus this year. Sucks to hear it's hard to find a club. We had a bunch of them in school, but not the proper nets.
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snakesnake
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(Original post by Smack)
That's because they probably don't train their deadlifts much.
Well yes and no. They might not be trying to up their 1 rep max like a powerlifter but all the squatting they do certainly does benefit the pull. Plus doing cleans and snatches as well as clean pulls with supermaximal weights does have them training pulling strength quite a lot.

I can't say that I've been doing anything too special either for my max pulling strength- the last time before my latest deadlift PR I went above 90% of my max more than 2 months before it.

(Original post by SmashConcept)
Well no, I was going to emphasize that I wasn't telling you to change sports, just that this is the reason your ratio is different. Saying elite discus throwers have "natural disadvantages" is pretty silly, but they are doing a sport they have natural aptitude for. Because they're so talented, you would have to compare their lifts to people like Eric Lilliebridge, James Henderson, Spoto or whoever. And then their arm length manifests itself, because 200 doesn't look so great.

I was thinking about trying out the discus this year. Sucks to hear it's hard to find a club. We had a bunch of them in school, but not the proper nets.
I understand what you were saying.

With the discus throwers I mean that you have guys with generally quite long arms which are a known disadvantage in the bench press still putting up impressive weight. I don't know what planet you're on but for me, a 200kg bench press is insanely good. Maybe not top level powerlifitng competition good but still good.

Yeah, wish there were more athletics clubs around. Those places usually also have decent weight rooms as well with platforms and weightlifting bars. A full throwing field is expensive real estate but a simple net doesn't take all that much to set up.
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LavenderBlueSky88
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I don't really high bar squat, but it's probably around 70kg 1RM at the moment, I can do more low bar.

Deadlift hit 85kg today. Always been the same level as my squat but recently these overtook and my squats got worse.
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MindTheGaps
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(Original post by snakesnake)
175kg squat, 250kg deadlift.

Yeah I do have good deadlift leverages such as long arms and legs, however those very same long legs give me a disadvantage in the squat. I've always found pulling to come easier for me and I can hit new PRs without putting in as much work as I need to for squats.

Valid point about the raw vs equipped point. However for example we've had a powerlifting challenge (obviously raw) at our gym where the guys who beat me all had squats considerably more than me, however at the same time only one guy out deadlifted me.
To be honest the problem isn't that you have a weak squat, so much that you have an excellent deadlift.

To put this into context, I know a guy who broke the British junior deadlift record, with 280kg. I know he's now done 300kg but I don't know what fed that competition was with. He's tall, skinny, very long limbed, with a squat not so much more than yours and a bench almost as bad as mine. So you're not alone.

Potentially an answer would be to gain weight. I'm no fatty, but whilst I have proportionally long legs I can power through squats to some extent because I also have thick thighs and an arse which would put Kim Kardashian to shame. I don't know about your goals or your size now, but it is possible to alter your leverages somewhat, and adding weight is much more likely to aid your squat than your deadlift. Whilst skinnies can have great deadlifts, most good squatters are a bit heavy. This can be achieved through a prescription of lots of squats and lots of food.

Of course, the other answer would just be to man up and run a Smolov cycle or something. But if you ate enough whilst you did this, you'd probably gain leg size anyway, so it's a related proposition.

Edit: And tbh, if you're worried about numbers, why are you squatting high bar? Moving to low bar would be the obvious way to shift leverages in your favour.
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snakesnake
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(Original post by Rinsed)
To be honest the problem isn't that you have a weak squat, so much that you have an excellent deadlift.

To put this into context, I know a guy who broke the British junior deadlift record, with 280kg. I know he's now done 300kg but I don't know what fed that competition was with. He's tall, skinny, very long limbed, with a squat not so much more than yours and a bench almost as bad as mine. So you're not alone.

Potentially an answer would be to gain weight. I'm no fatty, but whilst I have proportionally long legs I can power through squats to some extent because I also have thick thighs and an arse which would put Kim Kardashian to shame. I don't know about your goals or your size now, but it is possible to alter your leverages somewhat, and adding weight is much more likely to aid your squat than your deadlift. Whilst skinnies can have great deadlifts, most good squatters are a bit heavy. This can be achieved through a prescription of lots of squats and lots of food.

Of course, the other answer would just be to man up and run a Smolov cycle or something. But if you ate enough whilst you did this, you'd probably gain leg size anyway, so it's a related proposition.

Edit: And tbh, if you're worried about numbers, why are you squatting high bar? Moving to low bar would be the obvious way to shift leverages in your favour.
I'm afraid that doesn't make sense to me- the problem is always the weakness, not the thing I'm good at.

I'm 189cm tall and today I weighed 111.3kg with no belly (but no six pack either) so I'm no skinny. I have a natural tendency to pack mass into my legs- I have quite a bit of difficulty finding well fitting pants. At the same time my arms are relatively puny for someone of such bodyweight. I'm trying to pack on a few more kg's but this is not a huge priority at the moment.

Well as I train for Olympic weightlifting, then a low bar squat is relatively useless to me. And I don't just want to move more weight, I want to get stronger and I want to get stronger at the high bar squat.

In any case I'm going to keep on squatting and pushing myself, though progress has been slow there has been some progress nonetheless.
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Motorbiker
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(Original post by snakesnake)
I was just wondering what people's high bar full back squat to conventional deadlift ratios are. The reason I ask of the link between these two is that obviously a lot of the same muscles are used in both.

I've always had a ridiculously low squat relative to the deadlift and after I hit a new deadlift PR just recently, that ratio was thrown even further off (despite a small squat improvement as well). Mine is 70% squat:deadlift, with my deadlift 75kg ahead of my squat. In fact when looking at the absolute differences between the two, there is hardly a competitive level powerlifter out there who has a difference this big (despite the overall figures for both lifts being higher).

Current records in fact show the squat out performing the deadlift in many cases (though I do realize that these figures might be equipped, plus they're not necessarily squatting high bar ATG like I do) http://www.powerlifting-ipf.com/44.html

How are you guys?
I did 180 high bar atg squat with a 200 max deadlift.

Now I've done 180*3 and 220.

Deadlift is a lot about your shape etc, good deadlifters tend to be bad benchers and squat seems to be standard across the board on average.

Ignore equipped lifts. Squats in equipment gain a lot lot more than Deadlifts.
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Motorbiker
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(Original post by Rinsed)
To be honest the problem isn't that you have a weak squat, so much that you have an excellent deadlift.

To put this into context, I know a guy who broke the British junior deadlift record, with 280kg. I know he's now done 300kg but I don't know what fed that competition was with. He's tall, skinny, very long limbed, with a squat not so much more than yours and a bench almost as bad as mine. So you're not alone.


Potentially an answer would be to gain weight. I'm no fatty, but whilst I have proportionally long legs I can power through squats to some extent because I also have thick thighs and an arse which would put Kim Kardashian to shame. I don't know about your goals or your size now, but it is possible to alter your leverages somewhat, and adding weight is much more likely to aid your squat than your deadlift. Whilst skinnies can have great deadlifts, most good squatters are a bit heavy. This can be achieved through a prescription of lots of squats and lots of food.

Of course, the other answer would just be to man up and run a Smolov cycle or something. But if you ate enough whilst you did this, you'd probably gain leg size anyway, so it's a related proposition.

Edit: And tbh, if you're worried about numbers, why are you squatting high bar? Moving to low bar would be the obvious way to shift leverages in your favour.

Is the guy you know called Matt?
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Appeal to reason
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Squat PB : 165kg
Deadlift PB : 160kg.
Haven't tested DL in a couple of months.
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illusionz
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(Original post by Motorbiker)
Is the guy you know called Matt?
Rinsed was an Oxford powerlifter iirc so quite possibly.
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illusionz
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(Original post by Appeal to reason)
Squat PB : 165kg
Deadlift PB : 160kg.
Haven't tested DL in a couple of months.
You have a strong squat.
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