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Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic? watch

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    I just want to make clear that this thread does not involve any discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict, it is a meta-thread about the conduct of the debate.

    I have heard countless times pro-Palestine advocates make the claim that Israel advocates call anyone who disagrees with them anti-semitic. I have heard it so many times that it is seared into perception of the debate.

    And yet, I have never actually heard a pro-Israeli advocate make that claim. I can't remember a single instance where a pro-Israeli advocate has said that criticising Israel is axiomatically and inherently anti-semitic.

    The fact the pro-Palestine crowd repeatedly and unbidden raise this claim that itself appears to attempt to confuse semitism and Zionism raises legitimate questions, I feel, about the true nature of their objection to the Israeli government. Why do they feel the need to keep raising this issue, without prompting? You can set your watch by the guarantee that every I/P debate someone on the pro-Palestine side will make a complaint that criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-semitism, despite the fact that charge is one I've never seen made.

    The repeated raising of this charge is propagandistic in nature. It suggests a level of disingenuosness and determination to slander the pro-Israeli side by claiming they conflated anti-Israeli sentiment and anti-semitism in a way I've not once actually seen happen
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    I just want to make clear that this thread does not involve any discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict, it is a meta-thread about the conduct of the debate.

    I have heard countless times pro-Palestine advocates make the claim that Israel advocates call anyone who disagrees with them anti-semitic. I have heard it so many times that it is seared into perception of the debate.

    And yet, I have never actually heard a pro-Israeli advocate make that claim. I can't remember a single instance where a pro-Israeli advocate has said that criticising Israel is axiomatically and inherently anti-semitic.

    The fact the pro-Palestine crowd repeatedly and unbidden raise this claim that itself appears to attempt to confuse semitism and Zionism raises legitimate questions, I feel, about the true nature of their objection to the Israeli government. Why do they feel the need to keep raising this issue, without prompting? You can set your watch by the guarantee that every I/P debate someone on the pro-Palestine side will make a complaint that criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-semitism, despite the fact that charge is one I've never seen made.

    The repeated raising of this charge is propagandistic in nature. It suggests a level of disingenuosness and determination to slander the pro-Israeli side by claiming they conflated anti-Israeli sentiment and anti-semitism in a way I've not once actually seen happen
    What is a Semite? Could arabs also be considered to be Semite?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    What is a Semite? Could arabs also be considered to be Semite?
    The dictionary definition of semitic is of or pertaining to Judaism or Jewish people. Do you understand what anti-semitic means or would you like me to help you out?

    Underlying this is, I suspect, your belief that there is no such thing as anti-semitism
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    I just want to make clear that this thread does not involve any discussion of the Israel/Palestine conflict, it is a meta-thread about the conduct of the debate.

    I have heard countless times pro-Palestine advocates make the claim that Israel advocates call anyone who disagrees with them anti-semitic. I have heard it so many times that it is seared into perception of the debate.

    And yet, I have never actually heard a pro-Israeli advocate make that claim. I can't remember a single instance where a pro-Israeli advocate has said that criticising Israel is axiomatically and inherently anti-semitic.

    The fact the pro-Palestine crowd repeatedly and unbidden raise this claim that itself appears to attempt to confuse semitism and Zionism raises legitimate questions, I feel, about the true nature of their objection to the Israeli government. Why do they feel the need to keep raising this issue, without prompting? You can set your watch by the guarantee that every I/P debate someone on the pro-Palestine side will make a complaint that criticism of Israel is not the same as anti-semitism, despite the fact that charge is one I've never seen made.

    The repeated raising of this charge is propagandistic in nature. It suggests a level of disingenuosness and determination to slander the pro-Israeli side by claiming they conflated anti-Israeli sentiment and anti-semitism in a way I've not once actually seen happen
    Oh I've seen this happen. I criticised Israel, on a news site (Israelipost I think it was as well), and I got loads of people calling me an anti-semite

    (Which was seriously ironic, when I looked at their Facebook profiles, where they liked things such as "There is no Palestine" "Palestinians are terrorists" "We should bomb Palestine" etc... )

    I think they called me an anti Semite, because there is only one Jewish country - to which I replied, well there's only one Hindu country as well. Doesnt mean I cant criticise it, without hating it's people...
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    Anti-Semitism is abhorrent, but in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict it is an obvious scapegoat for Palestine to rationalise all sorts of atrocious behaviour, a nigh-on indefatigable defence where if you disagree you're a neo-Nazi. That the claim is absent would equally suggest pro-Palestinians using straw men slippery slopes against the pro-Israeli side, devious and underhanded of them.

    However, this is a very big claim, and you'd do well to cite a few threads where this claim was not once made, but pro-Palestinians claimed pro-Israelis used it.

    People get petty when it comes to politics, it brings out the worst in all of us. #wallandchain
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    The dictionary definition of semitic is of or pertaining to Judaism or Jewish people. Do you understand what anti-semitic means or would you like me to help you out?

    Underlying this is, I suspect, your belief that there is no such thing as anti-semitism
    Only partially true:

    Jews AND Arabs

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...english/Semite

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...nglish/Semitic
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Oh I've seen this happen. I criticised Israel, on a news site (Israelipost I think it was as well), and I got loads of people calling me an anti-semite
    Can you provide screenshots of people saying that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently and axiomatically anti-semitic?

    It is interesting to me that while I've never seen anyone on the pro-Israel side claim that criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic, I have heard the endless complaints of the anti-Israel advocates.

    Why is there such a complete mismatch between the degree to which the pro-Palestine advocates make the claim and the degree to which the claim is actually made?
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    The meaning of anti-semitic has been quite firm. Do you have a quibble with the meaning of anti-semitic?

    It's interesting to me when the issue is raised pro-Palestine advocates often try to claim there is no such thing as anti-semitism, or that anti-semitism actually means anti-Jewish and anti-Arab and therefore there is no such thing as anti-Jewish prejudices. They play sophistic word games to avoid an actual discussion of anti-Jewish sentiment (under whatever name you want to use)
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Can you provide screenshots of people saying that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently and axiomatically anti-semitic?

    It is interesting to me that while I've never seen anyone on the pro-Israel side claim that criticism of Israel is automatically anti-semitic, I have heard the endless complaints of the anti-Israel advocates.

    Why is there such a complete mismatch between the degree to which the pro-Palestine advocates make the claim and the degree to which the claim is actually made?
    This is like...months ago. Im not gonna bother searching tbh... I cant even remember what the headline was. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack

    OK,so I dont have "proof" but Im not gonna bother trying to find these specific words, from a headline that I can't even remember...

    No, of course, not all people say that criticism of Israel is anti Semitic, but there are definitely some... Just like how there are some Muslims who think that criticism of Islam is Islamophobic...
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    The meaning of anti-semitic has been quite firm. Do you have a quibble with the meaning of anti-semitic?

    It's interesting to me when the issue is raised pro-Palestine advocates often try to claim there is no such thing as anti-semitism, or that anti-semitism actually means anti-Jewish and anti-Arab and therefore there is no such thing as anti-Jewish prejudices. They play sophistic word games to avoid an actual discussion of anti-Jewish sentiment (under whatever name you want to use)
    I do disagree with what the word "Semite" means. It's clear that you're just looking to push the "Im Pro Israel and Im right" stance. The dictionaries actually disagree with you, on the meanings of the word "Semite" and "Semitism"

    Im trying to remain relatively neutral here

    And you asked me for screenshots before, so please provide screenshots of people saying there is no such thing as anti semitism - and yeah there probably will be some, but there's also people who'll say there's no such thing as racism, no such thing as sexism, no such thing as Islamophobia, no such thing as homophobia etc... etc...

    Just because you criticise Israel, it does not mean that you are "anti Jewish" (You can also be anti Judaism without being anti Jewish imo)

    You are correct, with what the word "anti Semitism" means though:

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de.../anti-Semitism

    ie: a hatred of Jewish people only, and not Arabs
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    The dictionary definition of semitic is of or pertaining to Judaism or Jewish people. Do you understand what anti-semitic means or would you like me to help you out?

    Underlying this is, I suspect, your belief that there is no such thing as anti-semitism
    Antisemitism does exist but what the problem with criticising Israel if they are in the wrong?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Antisemitism does exist but what the problem with criticising Israel if they are in the wrong?
    Absolutely nothing wrong with criticising Israel.

    What I'm trying to establish is why pro-Palestine advocates play the "pro-Israel advocates always accuse us of anti-semitism" card, and keep playing it despite the fact I've never actually seen anyone from the pro-Israel camp say that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic.

    I believe such a card muddies the waters of the debate in a way that an accusation of automatic anti-semitism would if that card had actually ever been played
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    I've certainly seen it happen, but I cannot satisfy you with ocular proof.

    Then again, make of the following what you will:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-gaza-conflict

    http://www.adl.org/israel-internatio...i-semites.html
    (Naturally, the ADL doesn't discuss the defamatory nature of deeming someone anti-Semitic unfairly, but rather lends credence to such name calling)

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...m-9629803.html
    With some evidence here
    https://twitter.com/mirabarhillel/st...89097803890689

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-C...s-anti-Semitic

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eplorable.html

    http://www.jewishjournal.com/israeli..._anti_semitism

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/step...sset-1.2503902
    "Of course, criticism of Israeli government policy is not in and of itself necessarily anti-Semitic.

    But what else can we call criticism that selectively condemns only the Jewish state and effectively denies its right to defend itself, while systematically ignoring - or excusing - the violence and oppression all around it?"

    Which is a very weak admission followed by an contradictory and irrelevant statement against a straw man argument.

    "But, this is the face of the new anti-Semitism. It targets the Jewish people by targeting Israel and attempts to make the old bigotry acceptable for a new generation."

    http://socialistworker.org/2014/09/2...ip-over-debate

    http://cifwatch.com/2014/09/10/guard...ateful-tweets/

    Not saying these prove anything, just food for thought
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    (Original post by BitWindy)
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    Thanks for the links, I do appreciate you marshalling them.

    Having read through them, I haven't seen anything that says that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently and automatically anti-semitic. It merely points out that some criticism of Israel happens to come from an anti-semitic ideology.

    Unless one is claiming that a critic of Israel is automatically immune from an accusation of anti-semitism simply because they have criticised Israel, then I believe these accusations are legitimate to make. They are not the same thing as claiming that any and all criticism of Israel is inherently and automatically anti-semitic, which is what the pro-Palestine advocates often claim is being done

    It is also entirely legitimate to point an anti-semitic double standard; that is not the same as saying all criticism of Israel is automatically and inherently anti-semitic
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    (Original post by BitWindy)
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    By the way, just in the Socialist Worker article, the interviewee is asked this question.

    CAN YOU talk about their strategy of accusing critics of Israeli government policy of "anti-Semitism"?
    Is there any evidence that this is a "strategy"? Where is this evidence that this is an orchestrated strategy?

    It is indisputable that there are significant anti-semitic and anti-Israeli (in the xenophobic sense of judging all Israelis and being prejudiced against them) tendencies within many pro-Palestine organisations, so there is nothing inherently wrong with raising the question of anti-semitism where it is justified.

    Given I have not seen any official spokesman of Israel claim that any and all criticism of Israel is automatically and inherently anti-semitic, it seems as though such individuals believe they should be immune from being called anti-semitic, even if they are

    Interestingly, the subject of that interview in his response to that question goes on to do exactly what he is claiming he is being accused of; he makes statements that are, if not necessarily anti-semitic, then certainly taking a particular and singular view of Jewish people in relation to their views on Israel, in separating out Jewish people into 'good Jews' and 'bad Jews' based on their position in the I/P debate
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    I need to have a good rant about Israel at some point.
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Yes I do. It's clear that you're just looking to push the "Im Pro Israel and Im right" stance
    Not at all. I'm deeply critical of Israel and its policy in the West Bank, I believe Israel is deeply misguided and has even crossed the line into criminality in some of its actions. I also believe the Palestinian organisations have engaged in criminal and terroristic acts, both against Israelis and against their own citizens

    Then again, I come at my criticism of Israel from a non anti-semitic view, something that cannot be said for many critics of Israel. And I don't believe critics of Israel are immune from being questioned on anti-semitism simply because they are a critic of Israel.

    Do you or do you not deny that anti-semitism exists and means anti-Jewish prejudice?
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    (Original post by BitWindy)
    http://www.adl.org/israel-internatio...i-semites.html
    (Naturally, the ADL doesn't discuss the defamatory nature of deeming someone anti-Semitic unfairly, but rather lends credence to such name calling)
    Hang on, that doesn't make any sense. The ADL is addressing precisely the issue I raised; the myth that anyone who criticises Israel is accused of being an anti-semite. And it is a myth. One the ADL is busting.

    How does that link substantiate in any way the claim that critics of Israel are deemed to be anti-semites inherently and automatically by its supporters? The ADL article specifically says that there are absolutely legitimate bases for criticising Israel
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    Not at all. I'm deeply critical of Israel and its policy in the West Bank, I believe Israel is deeply misguided and has even crossed the line into criminality in some of its actions. I also believe the Palestinian organisations have engaged in criminal and terroristic acts, both against Israelis and against their own citizens

    Then again, I come at my criticism of Israel from a non anti-semitic view, something that cannot be said for many critics of Israel. And I don't believe critics of Israel are immune from being questioned on anti-semitism simply because they are a critic of Israel.

    Do you or do you not deny that anti-semitism exists and means anti-Jewish prejudice?
    What do you think about the absolutely retarded 20% vat for non resident citizens?!?!?!?! hihi citizens, join the army for 2 years, go away and pay taxes elsewhere, then come and pay retarded rates if you want to visit.Emigrate and suffer.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    The dictionary definition of semitic is of or pertaining to Judaism or Jewish people.
    Well, no. Here is Collins, for instance:

    noun
    1.a branch or subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Amharic, and such ancient languages as Akkadian and Phoenician


    adjective

    2.denoting, relating to, or belonging to this group of languages
    3.denoting, belonging to, or characteristic of any of the peoples speaking a Semitic language, esp the Jews or the Arabs
    4. another word for Jewish
    The least often used definition is normally placed last, by convention. Of course that doesn't mean that those with an axe to grind will not say otherwise.
 
 
 
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