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Evolution watch

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    (Original post by Mercer)
    Sort of. Darwin talks about evolution happening more slowly and inconclusively in certain forms of life.

    Its all to do with the increasing complexity of an organism, the more complex the higher the probability that a mutation will interfere with a vital system, as such in a higher organism there is a lower probability of a positive mutation being sustained.
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    Hence high mutation rate of single celled organisms.
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    (Original post by mipmapped)
    Hence high mutation rate of single celled organisms.
    Well in prokaryotes it's a little different, but essentially yes.
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    (Original post by gas_panic!)
    I am willing to stake a large amount of money that teaching of evolutionary theory is part of the gsce science syllabus.
    Evolutionary theory has been mandatory on the GCSE Science (Biology) syllabus since 'Curriculum 2000'.

    Prior to that (and during the period that jojo72 was talking of) it was not included in the GCSE biology syllabus.
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    (Original post by jojo72)
    I know we don't 'come from' monkeys - my OP was poorly phrased.

    We were never taught evolution at science in school.

    We were taught about different religions though.
    That's... quite sad.

    But anyway, read up on it before making sarcastic comments (or at least, you appear quite sarcy about it in the OP and the big bang comment.)
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    (Original post by Nefarious)
    Its all to do with the increasing complexity of an organism, the more complex the higher the probability that a mutation will interfere with a vital system, as such in a higher organism there is a lower probability of a positive mutation being sustained.
    I seem to remember there are more external factors: not just obvious cases of climate change etc, but to do with the closeness of similar varieties and species in the area. I'll have to check it out. That sort of thing is quite detailed as he gets a lot of stuff from breeding of pigeons, dogs etc.
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    (Original post by Sam Beckett)
    And only *******s believe in God. If you had a brain you'd see that there were hundreds, if not thousands of gods thought up and believed in before baby Jesus' father. Now either all of those are false, and for some reason God is REAL and they are not...OR maybe, just maybe human's nature is to explain the world around them. Years ago, before science had developed, people would turn to the supernatural. ie God, Poseidon, Asklepius, Imhotep, Horus, Emuman, Treeman...
    Belief in God and belief in evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive. To say that all theists are whatever you hid behind your stars is both ridiculous and offensive to all theists and agnostics and your reasoning is unsound. What if I said that:

    "Only ****s believe in evolution. If you had a brain you'd see that there were hundreds, if not thousands of theories regarding the development of species thought up and believed in before Darwin came around. Now either all of those are false, and for some reason evolution is REAL and they are not... OR maybe, just maybe human's nature is to explain the world around them."

    You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term God. A monotheistic God is generally described as, among other things, an infinite, eternal, transcendent creator of everything from nothing. Theism =/= Christianity. Lots of very intelligent scientists and philosophers believe (or for the dead ones, believed) in God; Immanuel Kant and Stephen Hawkins to name just two.

    Just playing the devils advocate here, I'm still very much an evolution fan.
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    (Original post by master-chafe)
    Belief in God and belief in evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive. To say that all theists are whatever you hid behind your stars is both ridiculous and offensive to all theists and agnostics and your reasoning is unsound. What if I said that:

    "Only ****s believe in evolution. If you had a brain you'd see that there were hundreds, if not thousands of theories regarding the development of species thought up and believed in before Darwin came around. Now either all of those are false, and for some reason evolution is REAL and they are not... OR maybe, just maybe human's nature is to explain the world around them."


    You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term God. A monotheistic God is generally described as, among other things, an infinite, eternal, transcendent creator of everything from nothing. Theism =/= Christianity. Lots of very intelligent scientists and philosophers believe (or for the dead ones, believed) in God; Immanuel Kant and Stephen Hawkins to name just two.

    Just playing the devils advocate here, I'm still very much an evolution fan.
    I have no problems with religious people, but your example is a bit different because with science the whole point is that you get stuff wrong early on, and you get more things right as you progress. So evolution is likely to have more truth to it than early explinations.

    But I don't see how any one religion really has anymore proof than any other, it all depends on what you're brought up with really.
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    'My' example is no different. It is the same logical argument, is equally applicable despite the completely different subject matter and has the same logical flaws as his, it is just my example will appear more obviously flawed to more people because more people will disagree with it.

    Why is philosophy any different to physics? Person one makes a statement they beleive to be true based on their observations and thoughts. Said statement is accepted. Person two writes a critique of original statement and either the statement is completely rejected or is refined by person one, two or even person three. Said second statement is accepted, and so on.

    Again, belief in God is not the same as accepting a specific religion along with its customs, teachings and stories. Besides, there can be no proof of something transcendent. That is why philosophy of religion and biology are so incomparable. One is full of disillusioned people trying to prove something they can't possibly prove and are instantly shot down and the other is a collection of observations of patterns in the world in which we live.
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    Whoever believes in God needs to retake their history class.

    In Medicine Through Time I learned that even prehistoric man had a belief system; a basic, unrealistic view of the world. Based on fantasy and the supernatural. Every civilisation has had one. Belief in God is just another example of it, as are the Greek gods and their MYTHS and LEGENDS. Are myths and legends true? No.

    Stupid God-fearing people. Seriously...the plausibility of it is zero. Evolution makes a whole lotta sense.

    I'm not asking anyone to stop believing in anything. I'm just saying look at the facts, and what are the odds. Common sense really.

    And what other theories were there before the theory of Evolution? It was virtually all about the Creator. And Creationism.
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    Belief in evolution and rejection of the possibility of God as a result is just as bad as belief in God and rejection of the possibility of evolution. The topic of theology is not nulified by the concept of evolution.

    What are the odds of the universe appearing, ex nihilo, with no cause? Is the answer evolution? I think not. Again, you confuse the concept of God with the concept of a bearded dude sat on a cloud as believed in by the generally uneducated God-fearing members of society. Their concept of a God that reveals himself is falible since this proof turns God into a figure of authority, making people do what he wants, like you said, in fear of Him and His Terrible Retribution and you are right, the logical possibility of that is zero. Proof of God eliminates free will and as a result people don't do bad stuff because they *know* that Big Brother is watcing them, rather than because they are good people. Christians don't like being told that, they don't like the concept of the historical purpose of the church being an authoritarian body. You have to understand the concept God before you start making accusations about the probability of the existence of a Creator on the basis of myths and legends. Evolution doesn't explain gravity just as it doesn't explain spatial and temporal existence. Just because what is now explained by evolution used to be explained by the cop-out blanket solution of 'God did it' doesn't mean that therefore 'God is not'. Did you know that some hardcore Christians reject gravity too? They still believe that God 'wants' things to fall to the ground, so they do. They believe in God and think that if anything overlaps and contridicts their beliefs then it must be false, just as you do not belief in God and if anyone elses beliefs contridict with yours, it stands to (your) reason that everything they believe must therefore be wrong.
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    Who says the universe appeared out of nothing? If the Big Bang is a recurring theme and the universe is not governed by time then it didnt need to be created.
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    (Original post by Sam Beckett)
    Whoever believes in God needs to retake their history class.

    In Medicine Through Time I learned that even prehistoric man had a belief system; a basic, unrealistic view of the world. Based on fantasy and the supernatural. Every civilisation has had one. Belief in God is just another example of it, as are the Greek gods and their MYTHS and LEGENDS. Are myths and legends true? No.
    Myths and legends can contain quite potent psychological and moral truth, and they're not really presented as literally real: otherwise religious writers wouldn't put factually contradictory but psychologically vital approaches to the same stories in such close provimity.

    And as said, the existence of more primitive belief systems could be seen as less advanced reactions to man's inner experience of God.

    (Original post by Sam Beckett)
    Stupid God-fearing people. Seriously...the plausibility of it is zero. Evolution makes a whole lotta sense.
    How do you judge the plausibility? And it's not evolution vs. religion

    (Original post by Sam Beckett)
    I'm not asking anyone to stop believing in anything. I'm just saying look at the facts, and what are the odds. Common sense really.
    I don't see how you calculate the 'odds'. What facts speak against a God?

    (Original post by Sam Beckett)
    And what other theories were there before the theory of Evolution? It was virtually all about the Creator. And Creationism.
    Well, there were other forms of Evolution, such as Lamarkism. And the idea of species striving towards some perfection: Ultimate Reality as a drawing force like gravity rather than a Creator.
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    (Original post by The_Bear)
    Who says the universe appeared out of nothing? If the Big Bang is a recurring theme and the universe is not governed by time then it didnt need to be created.
    Yeah, I know, I was going for the brainmelt by ignoring the plethora of logical problems with the cosmological argument (think that's the right one). I'm of the camp that doesn't really care and instead likes arguing with whatever people say.

    I just felt like throwing a proverbial spanner into the mind of someone who seemed to be of the persuasion evergrowing in popularity of an athiest to whom science is to their beliefs as theology is to a God-fearing person's (in that they don't really understand enough to make the statements that they do). Sam Becket was basically giving us evolutionists a bad name with a dodgy argument (no offence mate but in a decent argument you can't give people any space to argue back) and I was trying my best to get him to refine it a bit. I just like throwing spanners to be honest. Just wait till I manage to slip an ontological brainmelt into an evolution/ID argument, that'll be fun.
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    i have been told that humans are growing genetically taller over time, of course there is already a genetic difference eg the dutch and the japanese....imagine these people were seperated for 100 000 years....they would look even more different and would be even more different.

    evolution does not need a disaster or bad conditions it can happen by the laws of attraction between people, eg maybe women in holland like tall men.

    this tiny preference leads to a change in genetics.

    then there is the lactose tollernt gene which is explained briliantly in the ancestors tale by dawkins.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    Speaking purely in evolutional terms (which I do not believe, but there you go), We have rather stopped evolution in it's track with modern medicine and lifestyle. We can keep people alive a lot longer, cure a huge array of health problems and have facilities to look after those who cannot work for the good of the tribe (the elderly, those with various physical and mental disabilities ect.), so we are keep flawed DNA that would have been lost previously.
    ^ That. Once humans got to the point where they had social evolution, biological evolution's become... less of an issue.
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    We will become goobacks obviously.
 
 
 
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