Prostitution or stripping.. Which is worse?
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Original post by scrotgrot
But for me that makes the prostitute worthier than the stripper. She's more likely to be doing it out of dire need while the stripper is just dabbling and earning easy money for not much work.
Stripping involves a lot of work and discipline. Why is it less 'worthy' than lorry drivers or factory workers who don't do a lot more than use their body for money? Do you need to be exploited and in danger to be 'worthy' of making money?
And there are male strippers and prostitutes... Don't gender it
Original post by Eanzi
Stripping involves a lot of work and discipline. Why is it less 'worthy' than lorry drivers or factory workers who don't do a lot more than use their body for money? Do you need to be exploited and in danger to be 'worthy' of making money?
And there are male strippers and prostitutes... Don't gender it
And there are male strippers and prostitutes... Don't gender it
I would argue being a lorry driver or factory worker is much more degrading and dehumanising than being a stripper, and you earn less. I'm sure it does take much work and discipline, but surely throwing your body around sexily and taking home rolls of notes for the privilege is more edifying than sitting on an assembly line repeating the same task 5000 times a day for the profit of some giant corporation.
Yes, I would say if you're exploited or in a dangerous line of work you should certainly be amply compensated for it. Strippers may have to apply work and discipline but aren't all that exploited as far as I can see, no-touching rules are ubiquitous, they can refuse custom, they can avoid tax, they have considerable autonomy over their working hours, and surely they earn enough money that they can get out of it pretty quickly if they want to - particularly if they're skilled university students.
I would put strippers in the same category as Tarot readers, they are providing a comfortable illusion through preying on weak-willed customers. I'm not saying they're the worst people in the world or that they shouldn't be allowed to make money off horny men, and maybe there are some realities of the job I'm blind to, but I'm afraid I have very little truck with the idea that they're victims or somehow have it worse than other unskilled occupations.
And don't be silly, of course stripping is gendered. If I ran out of money and couldn't get a job, I'd be out of uni and on the streets, I couldn't rock up at a strip club and be offered a job within two minutes of being there, as my girlfriend once was when we went to a strip club.
Original post by scrotgrot
I would argue being a lorry driver or factory worker is much more degrading and dehumanising than being a stripper, and you earn less. I'm sure it does take much work and discipline, but surely throwing your body around sexily and taking home rolls of notes for the privilege is more edifying than sitting on an assembly line repeating the same task 5000 times a day for the profit of some giant corporation.
Yes, I would say if you're exploited or in a dangerous line of work you should certainly be amply compensated for it. Strippers may have to apply work and discipline but aren't all that exploited as far as I can see, no-touching rules are ubiquitous, they can refuse custom, they can avoid tax, they have considerable autonomy over their working hours, and surely they earn enough money that they can get out of it pretty quickly if they want to - particularly if they're skilled university students.
I would put strippers in the same category as Tarot readers, they are providing a comfortable illusion through preying on weak-willed customers. I'm not saying they're the worst people in the world or that they shouldn't be allowed to make money off horny men, and maybe there are some realities of the job I'm blind to, but I'm afraid I have very little truck with the idea that they're victims or somehow have it worse than other unskilled occupations.
And don't be silly, of course stripping is gendered. If I ran out of money and couldn't get a job, I'd be out of uni and on the streets, I couldn't rock up at a strip club and be offered a job within two minutes of being there, as my girlfriend once was when we went to a strip club.
Yes, I would say if you're exploited or in a dangerous line of work you should certainly be amply compensated for it. Strippers may have to apply work and discipline but aren't all that exploited as far as I can see, no-touching rules are ubiquitous, they can refuse custom, they can avoid tax, they have considerable autonomy over their working hours, and surely they earn enough money that they can get out of it pretty quickly if they want to - particularly if they're skilled university students.
I would put strippers in the same category as Tarot readers, they are providing a comfortable illusion through preying on weak-willed customers. I'm not saying they're the worst people in the world or that they shouldn't be allowed to make money off horny men, and maybe there are some realities of the job I'm blind to, but I'm afraid I have very little truck with the idea that they're victims or somehow have it worse than other unskilled occupations.
And don't be silly, of course stripping is gendered. If I ran out of money and couldn't get a job, I'd be out of uni and on the streets, I couldn't rock up at a strip club and be offered a job within two minutes of being there, as my girlfriend once was when we went to a strip club.
I'm not saying that they have it bad. A lot of labour works have it dandy. I'm saying that just because it's not the most horrifying career that doesn't make it unworthy or less... Respectable... Than prostitues? Or whatever you said. Tarot readers are illusionists. Strippers aren't making anything up, lol.
And your girlfriend is the exception. Most girls are average and not super toned. Most girls would not be able to be strippers. Still doesn't prove that there are no male strippers? You ever been to a hen party? Obviously there are more women doing it, but you're not stupid enough to excuse gendering professions in 2014.
Original post by Eanzi
I'm not saying that they have it bad. A lot of labour works have it dandy. I'm saying that just because it's not the most horrifying career that doesn't make it unworthy or less... Respectable... Than prostitues? Or whatever you said. Tarot readers are illusionists. Strippers aren't making anything up, lol.
And your girlfriend is the exception. Most girls are average and not super toned. Most girls would not be able to be strippers. Still doesn't prove that there are no male strippers? You ever been to a hen party? Obviously there are more women doing it, but you're not stupid enough to excuse gendering professions in 2014.
And your girlfriend is the exception. Most girls are average and not super toned. Most girls would not be able to be strippers. Still doesn't prove that there are no male strippers? You ever been to a hen party? Obviously there are more women doing it, but you're not stupid enough to excuse gendering professions in 2014.
Strippers are illusionists, they are making a sexual display which signals attraction to the man when really there is no attraction. Of course men aren't stupid enough to think a stripper might actually want to have sex with them, we know how little we're worth, but we are talking about a very reptilian part of the brain here which operates unhindered by conscious awareness.
She's not super toned, just spends a lot of time primping. I guess she had an interesting look. I agree that you have to be decent-looking, but that just makes it more annoying, same with Hollister when they only hire hot people.
I'm sorry but the world isn't a gender-equal paradise, I can't think of many industries with the same inequality of opportunity as the sex industry. Not saying it should or could be any other way, but it is a bit preposterous to say the sex industry is ungendered. Of course as women start to go wild a bit more and lose inhibitions there is increased opportunity for male strippers, but as in all areas of the sex industry they earn far less than the women and there is never going to be the same amount of work.
Original post by scrotgrot
Strippers are illusionists, they are making a sexual display which signals attraction to the man when really there is no attraction. Of course men aren't stupid enough to think a stripper might actually want to have sex with them, we know how little we're worth, but we are talking about a very reptilian part of the brain here which operates unhindered by conscious awareness.
She's not super toned, just spends a lot of time primping. I guess she had an interesting look. I agree that you have to be decent-looking, but that just makes it more annoying, same with Hollister when they only hire hot people.
I'm sorry but the world isn't a gender-equal paradise, I can't think of many industries with the same inequality of opportunity as the sex industry. Not saying it should or could be any other way, but it is a bit preposterous to say the sex industry is ungendered. Of course as women start to go wild a bit more and lose inhibitions there is increased opportunity for male strippers, but as in all areas of the sex industry they earn far less than the women and there is never going to be the same amount of work.
She's not super toned, just spends a lot of time primping. I guess she had an interesting look. I agree that you have to be decent-looking, but that just makes it more annoying, same with Hollister when they only hire hot people.
I'm sorry but the world isn't a gender-equal paradise, I can't think of many industries with the same inequality of opportunity as the sex industry. Not saying it should or could be any other way, but it is a bit preposterous to say the sex industry is ungendered. Of course as women start to go wild a bit more and lose inhibitions there is increased opportunity for male strippers, but as in all areas of the sex industry they earn far less than the women and there is never going to be the same amount of work.
Reptilian part of the brain? Unfortunately we are human beings and our brains are mammalian. Evolution is irrelevant when we're talking about rational adult humans who PLAN to go to a strip club, for gods sake. Strippers don't catch you unawares on the street.
Stripping isn't sex work, and I don't have any sympathy for any sad prick who walks into a strip club and isn't aware that the girl is just dancing for money. Women aren't male peacocks. sure, sex sells, but it's not manipulative. It's dancing for money. Selling a house is just as much about illusion as dancing is.
Original post by thunder_chunky
Not really.
Yes they are, they're pretty much all escorts.
Original post by Eanzi
Reptilian part of the brain? Unfortunately we are human beings and our brains are mammalian. Evolution is irrelevant when we're talking about rational adult humans who PLAN to go to a strip club, for gods sake. Strippers don't catch you unawares on the street.
No, I'm afraid you have a lot to learn about neurology here. I'm sure you would be quite happy for bookmakers and tobacco companies to confront their social responsibilities given that they also trade on the exploitation of powerful neurological pathways. We are constantly having that sort of debate, we even sometimes fret on about whether video games are making kids violent, pornography making men rapists, or advertising making people consumers, for heaven's sake.
Consciousness and cognition, which are involved in the rational decision to go to a strip club, and the rational understanding that strippers are not in fact propositioning you for sex, are merely the tip of the iceberg and when in medias res they are quite simply powerless against the baser parts of the brain, which have been conditioned over hundreds of millions of years to respond instinctively to sexual signalling with the supposition that sex is on the cards.
Otherwise, why would men get erections when in a strip club? That's the level of function we're talking about here. Conscious awareness is but a mirage on the horizon and there is simply no mechanism for it to have anything but a secondary, censorious input that reminds the man that despite all appearances there is not actually going to be any sex.
I wonder by what mechanism you suppose it would be enjoyable if men were constantly filtering their perceptions through the conscious understanding that it's all a lie and sex isn't actually going to happen.
Stripping isn't sex work, and I don't have any sympathy for any sad prick who walks into a strip club and isn't aware that the girl is just dancing for money. Women aren't male peacocks. sure, sex sells, but it's not manipulative. It's dancing for money. Selling a house is just as much about illusion as dancing is.
I'm not sure of the academic scope of the word "sex work", but certainly stripping is part of the sex industry. I agree that illusion and manipulation when selling things operates throughout our economic system and indeed transcends it.
But we are quite comfortable with the idea that some of these things are more manipulative than others, gambling and tobacco for example. We are (rightly) comfortable with tight regulation or even outright illegality for some of these things and explanations that emphasise the consumer's role as victim.
The male sex drive is perhaps more powerful than you can comprehend, and I am in no doubt that sex work exploits it quite as easily as tobacco and gambling exploit the addictive response. And yet, we still get supposedly liberal individuals shaming guys who go to strip clubs, probably not having had sex in years and years, as "sad pricks [who] aren't aware that the girl is just dancing for money". If you asked a gambler or smoker whether they understood that the house always wins and smoking will make your lungs rot away they would say, "Yes, of course I know that, what do you think I am, stupid?" Then they would go straight out and put their wages on a horse or buy a pack of 20 Marlboro Lights.
That betrays a fatal lack of understanding both of the male sex drive and of basic neurology and I'm afraid you will have to brush up your argument.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Eanzi
My argument that strippers deserve respect.... lol. Spend this much time thinking about your moral compass instead of irrelevant tangents about boners and maybe we'll get somewhere 
If you think male sexual arousal is irrelevant to stripping, of all things, then I simply don't know where to start
Having a sexual response to a woman dancing in your lap in a way expressly designed to produce a sexual response has absolutely no bearing on whether you respect strippers or not.
Original post by scrotgrot
If you think male sexual arousal is irrelevant to stripping, of all things, then I simply don't know where to start
Having a sexual response to a woman dancing in your lap in a way expressly designed to produce a sexual response has absolutely no bearing on whether you respect strippers or not.
Having a sexual response to a woman dancing in your lap in a way expressly designed to produce a sexual response has absolutely no bearing on whether you respect strippers or not.
No, it's not relevant, since it's about the respect of the profession, not who gets off on it. I think strippers deserve respect on par with other jobs, you think prostitutes deserve more because they're desperate and exploited, cool. I don't care about the customers.
Original post by twisted
Yes they are, they're pretty much all escorts.
It's technically all sex work but it's not actually prostitution.
Original post by thunder_chunky
It's technically all sex work but it's not actually prostitution.
Stripping itself isn't prostitution of course, but strippers are also escorts.
Prostitutes are such dirty filthy animals but strippers have my respect
Original post by Eanzi
No, it's not relevant, since it's about the respect of the profession, not who gets off on it. I think strippers deserve respect on par with other jobs, you think prostitutes deserve more because they're desperate and exploited, cool. I don't care about the customers.
Yes, but you seem to think any criticism of the profession, or the opinion that it might not be as hard even as other unskilled jobs like lorry driver or factory worker, equals a lack of respect for it. Nowhere have I said I don't respect strippers, I just think they might on balance have a pretty sweet gig which might be a bit immoral due to exploiting a powerful drive in its customers.
Similarly I wouldn't disrespect a tobacco company executive, though I would expect him to have proper awareness of the exploitation involved in the industry. I'd be very disappointed if he said "it's an entirely free choice and not my concern if my stupid customers don't understand smoking will ruin their lungs", similarly to how I'm disappointed in you calling men who go to strip clubs "sad pricks who don't understand strippers don't want to have sex with them".
I'm sure actual strippers, who are usually smart women, would be the first to acknowledge the exploitation involved. They are after all the best versed in the vagaries of the male sexual response: they trade on their ability to manipulate it.
(edited 9 years ago)
It seems like stripping would be a relatively better option because prostitution would mean you would have to have sex, and you'll be exposed to STDs and other diseases. Not to mention that treatment with your "clients" may be harsh, whereas strip clubs (I think) would have better protection? idk, because in prostitution you would be my yourself, but strip clubs you would be with other people to help you if needed?
Original post by scrotgrot
Yes, but you seem to think any criticism of the profession, or the opinion that it might not be as hard even as other unskilled jobs like lorry driver or factory worker, equals a lack of respect for it. Nowhere have I said I don't respect strippers, I just think they might on balance have a pretty sweet gig which might be a bit immoral due to exploiting a powerful drive in its customers.
Similarly I wouldn't disrespect a tobacco company executive, though I would expect him to have proper awareness of the exploitation involved in the industry. I'd be very disappointed if he said "it's an entirely free choice and not my concern if my stupid customers don't understand smoking will ruin their lungs", similarly to how I'm disappointed in you calling men who go to strip clubs "sad pricks who don't understand strippers don't want to have sex with them".
I'm sure actual strippers, who are usually smart women, would be the first to acknowledge the exploitation involved. They are after all the best versed in the vagaries of the male sexual response: they trade on their ability to manipulate it.
Similarly I wouldn't disrespect a tobacco company executive, though I would expect him to have proper awareness of the exploitation involved in the industry. I'd be very disappointed if he said "it's an entirely free choice and not my concern if my stupid customers don't understand smoking will ruin their lungs", similarly to how I'm disappointed in you calling men who go to strip clubs "sad pricks who don't understand strippers don't want to have sex with them".
I'm sure actual strippers, who are usually smart women, would be the first to acknowledge the exploitation involved. They are after all the best versed in the vagaries of the male sexual response: they trade on their ability to manipulate it.
I never said that, in fact I was agreeing with you that most men don't expect that. Dont confuse your own phrasing with mine and then patronise me with your 'disappointment'.
But wow ok comparing strippers to tobacco CEOs who cause large scale exploration and corruption globally compared to one person dancing for money - get a grip. Men in strip clubs aren't exploited. If a girl flirts with you to sell you something - that's manipulating you. Not going to a strip club. Men can control themselves. Do you not have any standards for your own sex?
And even if the industry is ****ty - How is that less so than prostitution? Is that not worse, by your logic?
Original post by twisted
Stripping itself isn't prostitution of course, but strippers are also escorts.
Strippers are not escorts.Original post by Blue_Mason
Prostitutes are such dirty filthy animals but strippers have my respect
You're a moron,
Original post by oskarm93
"Selling is legal. ****ing is legal. Why isn't selling ****ing legal?!" - George Carlin
It is, at least in the UK.
Stripping: you almost invariably work somewhere that expects you to pay for the privilege of performing there. You see your competition all the time there, and not all of them are nice. You also need to be good at hustling and with coping with rejection in person. It's possible to make good money doing it, especially if you fit various stereotypes, but you'll probably be working very late at night with lots of *******s around. If you are out about also doing sex for money - and lots do it - the club will usually bar you (they're afraid for their licence...)
Prostitution: you have much a bigger ability to work independently. If you're not working in a brothel, you'll probably never meet others unless you want to. You need to be good at marketing, but you don't need to do it in person. It's possible to make good money out of it, even if you don't fit the stereotypes. You can pick the hours to suit you (there's much more of a day time and early evening trade). You can stay anonymous as you want.
Different people have different choices. Hooray.
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