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    (Original post by Lib North)
    Oh, and maybe having a few less children might have helped a bit too...
    That's a very low blow Lib...

    Class is more about mentality these days than it is about money.
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    Re: the money point: very true.

    I knew a very middle class family once, who had the Sheriff's officers over all the bloody time because they were too skint to pay their council tax...
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    (Original post by Lib North)
    What makes them working class then? I always took the middle class to be those who had a good deal of economic independence, which is broadly speaking what this new working class of yours has. We have huge numbers of people who aren't living hand-to-mouth anymore and who own their own home, car etc and value education and social advancement. These are the middle class and I feel they are very much the majority these days.



    The pursuit of money isn't the only thing worth your time. So long as you are willing to feed yourself, then in a capitalist society you can do as you wish. You only need to look to monks, nuns, philosophers and academics.

    The legitimate gaining of capital can never be at the expense of another because it is done by free trade - what is decided to mutually benefit both parties cannot be said to have any true 'expense'.



    It take a lot of changed perceptions and effort to become successful. They simply have to overcome the hurdles they are given. And once they fight their mental battles, the market is waiting for them to do their best.



    Why would you have no GCSEs at 16? By not working at school. They have roughly the same opportunities to become educated as I did - we have free and relatively good-quality education. We cannot hand the world to people on a plate, they must take it.



    Good on you. Incidently, £30,000 worth of debt is going to be nothing in comparison to the benefit you receive from your degree.

    Your parents had the same opportunities as you - in fact, they'd have received free university education had they decided to take it up. They didn't. That's their choice. Oh, and maybe having a few less children might have helped a bit too...

    1. economic independence you say? I've done plenty of office expierience over summer holidays, and the VAST majority of workers are not making much more than manual labourers were years ago. They all have lots of debt, just like virtually every one of you 'middle class, independent' families. Make no mistake, the banks provide for them, so they can capitalise on it. My ncle went to uni, got a GOOD degree, works hard, but becuase of debt is going to be kicked out of his house.
    2. It is true, and I wil admit, that we are no longer living in "hard" times. al least not as hard as they were. but most peoplle do not own their house, noone can afford this suppsed condition of freedom..maybe you mean they are working their whole lives to pay of for some stupid 3 bedroom house..THE BANKS OWN THE HOUSES.
    3. "willing to feed yourself" I know people who have in the past, and still do struggle to eat as a family. They are given the worst deal in life, whils tothers simply are not. Capitalism had made people only care about materialistic bull****. If somone really wants to achieve somthing outside the confnes of the system, even if they just want a say in how thier own bloody taxes are spent, this is out of the question. and for the record, the majority of philosophers and academics were rich and went to privaleged schooling.
    4. Free trade is not the issue, in an ever-expanding corporate world, you really think people can have a mutually benefitial exchange? Every time somone makes a profit, they can buy more recources..recources that should be rationed accordingly..my point is, if there are famalies without enough DECENT food for their kids, and at the same time the millionairs next door can afford to shuvle food down thier own throats, this is simply not justified.
    5.
    "Why would you have no GCSEs at 16? By not working at school. They have roughly the same opportunities to become educated as I did" Im sorry, thats absolute rubbish. The whole WORK EHTIC is conditioned into you. If you are raised to feel hopeless in school, without encouragement you wil be. With privitised education, no, not everyone has good quality teaching. there are schools in my part of london, that are so devistating you'd do better not to go at all! Besides some schools cant afford good teachers, extra-curiculars, equiptment, etc...
    6. £30,000 debt is worth it!? how can you say that? you have no idea what I will do with my degree. Education is a right, not a privlige! and for the record, we can afford to keep paying for peoples free university and OTHER education, if only our taxes wernt spent on illegal wars, and upgrading useless nuclear bombs *but thats another issue).
    7. my parents did not have the same oppertunities. end of story. there are more factors to take into account. My dad was schooled in a bad school, and whilst he is quite intelligent, univeristy was not encouraged at all. people were made to feel it was out of reach back then. and my mum, well she had other issues back then (also caused by the system, but we wont get into that).
    A FEW LESS CHILDREN? how dare you? pompus prick... they had 2 children, and then a third was had by my step-father. so thats 3 children (i said 5 people).. the average family in this country. and somtimes children cant be schedualled and planned. thats life
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    I'm working class and quite nice actually!
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    Lib North, you sir come across as pretentious and stuck up. You sound like you have NO idea of what life is like outside precious little suburbia.

    student_kyle has completely beaten you to the ground in this arguement, not literally of course.

    Pos rep to student_kyle. Really good points made there, i couldn't have said it better myself.
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    (Original post by JimmyJJ)
    Lib North, you sir come across as pretentious and stuck up. You sound like you have NO idea of what life is like outside precious little suburbia.

    student_kyle has completely beaten you to the ground in this arguement, not literally of course.

    Pos rep to student_kyle. Really good points made there, i couldn't have said it better myself.
    haha, cheers dude!
    all in the middle of the night when im supposed to be working aswell! lol
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    meh. You're all cretins.
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    The thing with The Student Room is that it offers help i.e. academic advice/ H&R section etc. It's not just a random chat room, that's why i love it so much!!!
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    (Original post by student_kyle)
    1. economic independence you say? I've done plenty of office expierience over summer holidays, and the VAST majority of workers are not making much more than manual labourers were years ago. They all have lots of debt, just like virtually every one of you 'middle class, independent' families. Make no mistake, the banks provide for them, so they can capitalise on it. My ncle went to uni, got a GOOD degree, works hard, but becuase of debt is going to be kicked out of his house.
    There is a culture in this country that seems to suggest that debt and living beyond one's means isn't a bad thing. That's complete *******s. People need to stop using credit that they can ill-afford.

    It's perfectly possible to live within your means and only have, say, a mortgage loaned to you.

    2. It is true, and I wil admit, that we are no longer living in "hard" times. al least not as hard as they were. but most peoplle do not own their house, noone can afford this suppsed condition of freedom..maybe you mean they are working their whole lives to pay of for some stupid 3 bedroom house..THE BANKS OWN THE HOUSES.
    The banks may hold the deeds, but the owners have real title to them. Keep up your end of the bargain and the house is yours to do with as you please. That's independent.

    Alternatively, go and by a plot and build a mud-hut on it. Whatever you like. Personally I don't have a problem with younger people using their future earnings potential to secure a home.

    3. "willing to feed yourself" I know people who have in the past, and still do struggle to eat as a family. They are given the worst deal in life, whils tothers simply are not. Capitalism had made people only care about materialistic bull****. If somone really wants to achieve somthing outside the confnes of the system, even if they just want a say in how thier own bloody taxes are spent, this is out of the question. and for the record, the majority of philosophers and academics were rich and went to privaleged schooling.
    The pursuit of material possessions is something most closely associated with the working classes anyway. That is their cultural problem to deal with. It's certainly nothing to do with capitalism.

    I don't accept that most great philosophers and academics were privileged. Indeed, many that received good schooling did so on the basis of scholarships and the generosity of patrons.

    4. Free trade is not the issue, in an ever-expanding corporate world, you really think people can have a mutually benefitial exchange? Every time somone makes a profit, they can buy more recources..recources that should be rationed accordingly..my point is, if there are famalies without enough DECENT food for their kids, and at the same time the millionairs next door can afford to shuvle food down thier own throats, this is simply not justified.
    5.
    I'd say that perhaps we don't have a decent answer to the problems of allocation of the earth's resources. We should investigate that further.

    As for the decent food argument, I find it hard to accept considering the same people you are referring to statistically manage to drink and smoke themselves into an early grave while pleading that they cannot afford to eat well (which in many cases is actually cheaper than eating pre-prepared ****)

    "Why would you have no GCSEs at 16? By not working at school. They have roughly the same opportunities to become educated as I did" Im sorry, thats absolute rubbish. The whole WORK EHTIC is conditioned into you. If you are raised to feel hopeless in school, without encouragement you wil be. With privitised education, no, not everyone has good quality teaching. there are schools in my part of london, that are so devistating you'd do better not to go at all! Besides some schools cant afford good teachers, extra-curiculars, equiptment, etc...
    I've never had a particularly great work ethic actually. I am a lazy sod. Yet I have battled it and overcome it in order to do fairly well.

    As I've said, we all have our mental hurdles. Middle class children have higher instances of depression. If you cannot develop a work ethic when you are perfectly able to see what is available to you if you do, then you don't deserve wealth or privilege.

    I can't really say I've experienced every school in the UK, but this is not the United States. I expect all to be of an acceptable standard, considering the amount of money that gets thrown at education.

    6. £30,000 debt is worth it!? how can you say that? you have no idea what I will do with my degree. Education is a right, not a privlige! and for the record, we can afford to keep paying for peoples free university and OTHER education, if only our taxes wernt spent on illegal wars, and upgrading useless nuclear bombs *but thats another issue).
    Education is a right? I suggest you go and knock on a random university lecturer's door at 2am and demand to be educated. See how far that gets you.

    Education is a tradable commodity like everything else. I think compulsary education up until 16 should be fully funded by the state. Anything beyond that is accepted by choice, presumably to increase one's employment prospects or for the simple sake of intellectual masturbation. Either way, I don't see why I should pay for it from other people.

    And yes, £30,000 worth of debt is a bargain. If someone said to me 'your degree, or £100,000' - I would answer my degree. Not only has it increased my potential future earnings, it has also given me an entirely different outlook on life and an experience that I have enjoyed thoroughly.

    7. my parents did not have the same oppertunities. end of story. there are more factors to take into account. My dad was schooled in a bad school, and whilst he is quite intelligent, univeristy was not encouraged at all. people were made to feel it was out of reach back then. and my mum, well she had other issues back then (also caused by the system, but we wont get into that).
    Fair enough, and we are working to get rid of problems like that. Nowadays, anyone can feel free to go to university on broadly a level playing field, although even in your father's day there was provision for the poor to attend I agree it wasn't enough or suitable. Either way, your parents would hopefully have a positive attitude to education.

    A FEW LESS CHILDREN? how dare you? pompus prick... they had 2 children, and then a third was had by my step-father. so thats 3 children (i said 5 people).. the average family in this country. and somtimes children cant be schedualled and planned. thats life
    If you bring in your own personal circumstances, then it's a little rich of you to expect that I will not respond to them and accept them as is. It's got nothing to do with pompousity.

    Many families would struggle having to raise five children (which is what I assumed you were talking about), so quite simply they don't do it. Three children isn't all that excessive, but children are expensive and that must be considered when having one.
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    (Original post by JimmyJJ)
    Lib North, you sir come across as pretentious and stuck up. You sound like you have NO idea of what life is like outside precious little suburbia.
    Perhaps if people were a little less afraid to tell the truth as they saw it instead of fearing being consider pretentious then this country would be in a far better shape than it is. We currently have a ridiculous level of reversed snobbery which manifests itself in criticising any sort of success, intellectual merit or personal betterment. It's often the middle classes that are told that they are unable to see the real picture, well I contend that it is the working classes that are far more likely to isolate themselves from real society and ignore the consequences of it that are staring them in the face.

    Incidently, I've never lived in any suburbs. I have lived almost all of my life in the countryside - where I have seen a great deal of rural poverty and social isolation - which your average socialist simply refuses to believe exists and no government has ever addressed despite it being far more the fault of government policies than the poverty of the urbanised proletariat.
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    I'm middle class with ambition.
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    (Original post by Fluent in Lies)
    I'm middle class with ambition.
    i have ambition...to marry rich :p:
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    Richard who?
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    (Original post by Fluent in Lies)
    Richard who?
    :rofl:

    i dont know. is there anyone here called richard?
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    ;no;
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    (Original post by student_kyle)
    1. economic independence you say? I've done plenty of office expierience over summer holidays, and the VAST majority of workers are not making much more than manual labourers were years ago. They all have lots of debt, just like virtually every one of you 'middle class, independent' families. Make no mistake, the banks provide for them, so they can capitalise on it. My ncle went to uni, got a GOOD degree, works hard, but becuase of debt is going to be kicked out of his house.
    2. It is true, and I wil admit, that we are no longer living in "hard" times. al least not as hard as they were. but most peoplle do not own their house, noone can afford this suppsed condition of freedom..maybe you mean they are working their whole lives to pay of for some stupid 3 bedroom house..THE BANKS OWN THE HOUSES.
    3. "willing to feed yourself" I know people who have in the past, and still do struggle to eat as a family. They are given the worst deal in life, whils tothers simply are not. Capitalism had made people only care about materialistic bull****. If somone really wants to achieve somthing outside the confnes of the system, even if they just want a say in how thier own bloody taxes are spent, this is out of the question. and for the record, the majority of philosophers and academics were rich and went to privaleged schooling.
    4. Free trade is not the issue, in an ever-expanding corporate world, you really think people can have a mutually benefitial exchange? Every time somone makes a profit, they can buy more recources..recources that should be rationed accordingly..my point is, if there are famalies without enough DECENT food for their kids, and at the same time the millionairs next door can afford to shuvle food down thier own throats, this is simply not justified.
    5.
    "Why would you have no GCSEs at 16? By not working at school. They have roughly the same opportunities to become educated as I did" Im sorry, thats absolute rubbish. The whole WORK EHTIC is conditioned into you. If you are raised to feel hopeless in school, without encouragement you wil be. With privitised education, no, not everyone has good quality teaching. there are schools in my part of london, that are so devistating you'd do better not to go at all! Besides some schools cant afford good teachers, extra-curiculars, equiptment, etc...
    6. £30,000 debt is worth it!? how can you say that? you have no idea what I will do with my degree. Education is a right, not a privlige! and for the record, we can afford to keep paying for peoples free university and OTHER education, if only our taxes wernt spent on illegal wars, and upgrading useless nuclear bombs *but thats another issue).
    7. my parents did not have the same oppertunities. end of story. there are more factors to take into account. My dad was schooled in a bad school, and whilst he is quite intelligent, univeristy was not encouraged at all. people were made to feel it was out of reach back then. and my mum, well she had other issues back then (also caused by the system, but we wont get into that).
    A FEW LESS CHILDREN? how dare you? pompus prick... they had 2 children, and then a third was had by my step-father. so thats 3 children (i said 5 people).. the average family in this country. and somtimes children cant be schedualled and planned. thats life
    to be honest you live in england, stop ****ing complaining. Go to a 3rd world country and get a clue. Some people are never happy with what they have, just by being born in this country youre pretty much in the top 5% of the world for the opportunities you have. If you really want to do something you can, you dont need to blame this and that for it, however cliched it might sound.

    And by the way socialism might work in concept but in practice its just stupid. THANKS.

    p.s. if you cant support lots of children, dont have them. Thats not being pompous thats being practical.

    and im middle class but both my parents werent (my mums from a town in india). My dads parents went without so he could go to boarding school. He worked hard got a scholorship to oxford and tadaa now we can have whatever.
 
 
 
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