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    ...that most people will say Muslims as a group should condemn the activities of terrorists (which is fair enough) but then in the same breath will argue that governments and their citizens are mutually exclusive; democratic or otherwise?

    For example, if a group of Muslims carry out a terrorist attack (in the name of Islam), all Muslims "should" condemn it because otherwise they will be seen as terrorist sympathisers yet the American people (for argument's sake) are not held responsible for the actions of their government (no matter how reprehensible those actions may be) despite the fact that they are the people who elected those people into office whereas terrorists are in no way representatives of Muslims as a whole; at least not by the majority's consent the way citizens of a democracy are. Seems to me to be a dichotomy; or am I missing something?

    Discuss.
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    My personal view is that it is because many people believe that Muslims do have terrorist sympathies, (which is not my opinion at all). Also I think it is due to underlying racism in some people's beliefs, you can't blame WHITE Americans if their government does smething bad, even though the person who made the decision was democratically elected in to power, because really they're nice people. If an NON-WHITE Muslim however, who is a bit of a nut with little to no following amongst Muslims, commits an atrocity however, then all Muslims are to blame and should condemn it, as they're really all evil people who would blow us up given the chance (in people's opinions). This is why there was such shock that a white Muslim convert was arrested in relation to the plot to blow up a plane which led to increased security at airports, "surely a white man couldn't want to do that?"!
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    (Original post by Socrates)
    ...that most people will say Muslims as a group should condemn the activities of terrorists (which is fair enough) but then in the same breath will argue that governments and their citizens are mutually exclusive; democratic or otherwise?

    For example, if a group of Muslims carry out a terrorist attack (in the name of Islam), all Muslims "should" condemn it because otherwise they will be seen as terrorist sympathisers yet the American people (for argument's sake) are not held responsible for the actions of their government (no matter how reprehensible those actions may be) despite the fact that they are the people who elected those people into office whereas terrorists are in no way representatives of Muslims as a whole; at least not by the majority's consent the way citizens of a democracy are. Seems to me to be a dichotomy; or am I missing something?

    Discuss.
    I think it depends what you mean by 'should'. It would certainly be helpful to the relations between communities if they did. But I don't see it as a duty or requirement.
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    (Original post by Socrates)
    ...that most people will say Muslims as a group should condemn the activities of terrorists (which is fair enough) but then in the same breath will argue that governments and their citizens are mutually exclusive; democratic or otherwise?

    For example, if a group of Muslims carry out a terrorist attack (in the name of Islam), all Muslims "should" condemn it because otherwise they will be seen as terrorist sympathisers yet the American people (for argument's sake) are not held responsible for the actions of their government (no matter how reprehensible those actions may be) despite the fact that they are the people who elected those people into office whereas terrorists are in no way representatives of Muslims as a whole; at least not by the majority's consent the way citizens of a democracy are. Seems to me to be a dichotomy; or am I missing something?

    Discuss.
    I agree that the two positions can't really be held simultaneously, but one factor to consider is that the set "Muslims" is bound together more strongly, by more values, than the set "Americans".
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    (Original post by Mercer)
    I think it depends what you mean by 'should'. It would certainly be helpful to the relations between communities if they did. But I don't see it as a duty or requirement.
    Judging by the tone of D&D and the recent threads, its certainly the feeling I got...
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    (Original post by Socrates)
    Judging by the tone of D&D and the recent threads, its certainly the feeling I got...
    Possibly. But people often expect exemplary behaviour from others, and not from themselves.
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    The terrorists aren't very Muslim to be honest; this is evident in what they do. Islam is at its heart a good peace loving religion, and terrorism (= murder etc) goes against this intrinsic quality. Why all Muslims, who are mostly peace loving, should apologise for these people who are only nominally Muslim and do not speak or act for the majority, is beyond me.

    Besides, an apology from Muslims is the same as an admission of guilt. Why should all Muslims be or feel guilty? They didn't wish death upon "the infidel West". Community relations whatever; it should have nothing to do with the point. I even imagine community relations deteriorating if Muslims were to come out and apologise for something they as a group didn't support or condone; because people will take it to be akin to an admission of guilt.

    Anyone who wants the whole set of Muslims, formed majorly by the good peace-loving types, to apologise for a few idiots who don't represent all of them, is an idiot.
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    (Original post by Juwel)
    The terrorists aren't very Muslim to be honest; this is evident in what they do.
    Then why do they garner so much support amongst Muslims, and why are muslims always making excuses for their actions?

    Islam is at its heart a good peace loving religion, and terrorism (= murder etc) goes against this intrinsic quality.
    Yes Islam in doctrine is as peace loving as any other religion. However, the culture withing Islam is violent, and its history has been one of conflict and war.

    Why all Muslims, who are mostly peace loving, should apologise for these people who are only nominally Muslim and do not speak or act for the majority, is beyond me.
    Because most Muslims are not peace loving, as their religion directs them to be. There is a pervading spirit in Islam of expansion against us infidels, and Muslims as a whole have been quite supportive of this. When their Mosques preach hatred of the west, and their sons and daughters are blowing us up, why should they not apologise?

    Besides, an apology from Muslims is the same as an admission of guilt.
    It would not be an admission of guilt, it would be the first step in the right direction: taking responsibility.

    Why should all Muslims be or feel guilty? They didn't wish death upon "the infidel West".
    Then why do they hold us to a double standard. Why do they respond to our words with violence, while we must endure their war with submission?

    Community relations whatever; it should have nothing to do with the point. I even imagine community relations deteriorating if Muslims were to come out and apologise for something they as a group didn't support or condone; because people will take it to be akin to an admission of guilt.
    Muslims have done enough to damage themselves in the eyes of others. When thousands are calling for atrocities and violence in response to a cartoon on our streets, why should they not take some responsibility for letting us fall victim to their clerical fascism?


    Anyone who wants the whole set of Muslims, formed majorly by the good peace-loving types, to apologise for a few idiots who don't represent all of them, is an idiot.
    But are the whole set of Muslims formed primarily by peace lovers? Maybe they should apologise for allowing these idiots to do what they do, because there community couldn't give a **** about what happens to us kuffars.
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    Erm I can find you millions of people that will say that Blair is a knobhead and that Bush is a cockhound and that both are fascist dictators. People complain about Bush/Blair strategies hundreds of thousands of times a day but the Muslim community is largely quiet about terrorism.
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    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Then why do they garner so much support amongst Muslims, and why are muslims always making excuses for their actions?
    Muslims in the West don't feel like they have a representative voice. So when someone claiming to fly the flag for Islam loud and proud comes along, some will fall for their charms. As a result there is no one single voice for all Muslims; impossible when Muslims disagree among themselves over these things. It's only the Muslims that you hear about and remember, only those that the TV and papers show because it's more entertaining to show those people, that make excuses for terrorists.

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Yes Islam in doctrine is as peace loving as any other religion. However, the culture withing Islam is violent, and its history has been one of conflict and war.
    Living in the past. Are you going to hold against modern Islam things that happened centuries ago? Today's Muslims had nothing to do with this history; they didn't sanction the wars of the past. In any case, Islam is not the only big group guilty of spreading by the sword.

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Because most Muslims are not peace loving, as their religion directs them to be. There is a pervading spirit in Islam of expansion against us infidels, and Muslims as a whole have been quite supportive of this. When their Mosques preach hatred of the west, and their sons and daughters are blowing us up, why should they not apologise?
    Most Muslims are not peace-loving? You seriously stand by this? .

    How many of their mosques? Only the few you hear about. Not the many who won't think twice about condemning murder.

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    It would not be an admission of guilt, it would be the first step in the right direction: taking responsibility.
    How is apologising for something not admitting guilt for it? Do you often apologise for things you didn't do?

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Then why do they hold us to a double standard. Why do they respond to our words with violence, while we must endure their war with submission?
    You keep referring to "they", all Muslims, as if they all are in the wrong; as if all Muslims are the same voice with the same opinions. I repeat: the truth is there is no one representative voice of all Muslims; there are too many differences between all those that call themselves Muslim for this to be possible. It's like Islam's Great Schism that hasn't quite happened to the same effect. And to address your point; "We must endure their war", what war is this?

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    Muslims have done enough to damage themselves in the eyes of others. When thousands are calling for atrocities and violence in response to a cartoon on our streets, why should they not take some responsibility for letting us fall victim to their clerical fascism?
    Thousands out of how many? Though I'm ready to accept that the response to said cartoons was out of order. Christians put up with blasphemous jokes all the time; occupational hazard of free speech. Muslims should learn to poke fun at themselves too.

    (Original post by SolInvictus)
    But are the whole set of Muslims formed primarily by peace lovers? Maybe they should apologise for allowing these idiots to do what they do, because there community couldn't give a **** about what happens to us kuffars.
    Primarily? Yes. And don't forget that Muslims have themselves been the victims of terrorist attacks. I imagine the average Muslim will care about what happens to their own brothers and sisters. And clearly you haven't met many Muslims if you claim that the average Muslim cares not for their fellow man, "believer" or not.
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    Because terrorist attacks targetting civilians are not comparable to the Government's attacks on terrorists.

    Intent, dear boy, intent.
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    (Original post by Juwel)
    Muslims should learn to poke fun at themselves too.
    Exactly. If you can laugh at your own beliefs, you're less likely to kill people for theirs. This applies to all fundamentalists of all descriptions. Or, even better would be making extremists the butt of (in)jokes - never underestimate the power of the meme. If the mainstream Muslim community can not only start to condemn its extremist counterparts and fight against their recuitment and indoctrination blah de blah de blah but also to make them the subject of Ummah-wide mockery, then we'll be getting somewhere.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    Exactly. If you can laugh at your own beliefs, you're less likely to kill people for theirs. This applies to all fundamentalists of all descriptions. Or, even better would be making extremists the butt of (in)jokes - never underestimate the power of the meme. If the mainstream Muslim community can not only start to condemn its extremist counterparts and fight against their recuitment and indoctrination blah de blah de blah but also to make them the subject of Ummah-wide mockery, then we'll be getting somewhere.
    Ditto! The ridicule in comedy of terrorists would be an amazing contribution on the part of moderate Islam in preventing their children from becoming extremist.

    And there should be a page in the Life Manual that says you should be able to laugh at yourself.
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    But that page is mysteriously missing from the "Life Manuals" that Jews, Christians and Muslims live their lives by. I blame the editors.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    But that page is mysteriously missing from the "Life Manuals" that Jews, Christians and Muslims live their lives by. I blame the editors.
    :laugh: ;yes;
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    Exactly. If you can laugh at your own beliefs, you're less likely to kill people for theirs. This applies to all fundamentalists of all descriptions. Or, even better would be making extremists the butt of (in)jokes - never underestimate the power of the meme. If the mainstream Muslim community can not only start to condemn its extremist counterparts and fight against their recuitment and indoctrination blah de blah de blah but also to make them the subject of Ummah-wide mockery, then we'll be getting somewhere.
    Depends what you consider an extremist AS
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    i personally voted lib dem and i dont like what our government has been doing in terms of foriegn policy. how is it hypocritical for me to say that muslims (in this country) should not support terrorism?
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    (Original post by high priestess fnord)
    i personally voted lib dem and i dont like what our government has been doing in terms of foriegn policy. how is it hypocritical for me to say that muslims (in this country) should not support terrorism?
    It isn't. Why would it be? Who said it was?
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    (Original post by Juwel)
    It isn't. Why would it be? Who said it was?
    (Original post by Socrates)
    ...that most people will say Muslims as a group should condemn the activities of terrorists (which is fair enough) but then in the same breath will argue that governments and their citizens are mutually exclusive; democratic or otherwise?
    ^ there
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    (Original post by high priestess fnord)
    i personally voted lib dem and i dont like what our government has been doing in terms of foriegn policy. how is it hypocritical for me to say that muslims (in this country) should not support terrorism?
    It's not. But there's a difference between not supporting it and actively condemning it, particularly as they would often see the people as not genuine Muslims.
 
 
 
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