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    (Original post by Mercer)
    It's not. But there's a difference between not supporting it and actively condemning it, particularly as they would often see the people as not genuine Muslims.
    point taken

    i know my muslim friends see suicide bombers etc as an insult to islam.
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    Depends what you consider an extremist AS
    Well, people who flagrantly ignore, and in fact act in a manner opposite to, significant sections of the Qur'an surely qualify.
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    Just as there has been, and is, more than one kind of Christianity, so it is with Islam. At this moment in time Islam is subject to some major forces in the world, like globalisation, western cultural hegemony, political weakness or excess in traditional Muslim societies as well as significant Muslim populations across the world trying to adjust to alternative social and cultural perspectives.

    But to answer the original question, I don't think any Muslim should be held to account for anything beyond his or her own actions in society. At the same time I think Muslims are suffering from the phenomenon which has been seen in various phases of Christianity; a desire to demonstrate piety and committment to one's religion too easily takes the believer in the direction of increasingly radical/conservative positions. This, to some extent, is what's happening with the use of the veil; young Muslim women who are quite often (though not always) brought up in liberal Muslim households, find themselves seeking to assert their commitment by taking on a more austere show of their religion (which, especially in the case of Islam, is deeply enmeshed in cultural and ethnic senses of identity too).

    Those are my initial thoughts anyway.

    Oswy.
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    Muslims in the West don't feel like they have a representative voice. So when someone claiming to fly the flag for Islam loud and proud comes along, some will fall for their charms. As a result there is no one single voice for all Muslims; impossible when Muslims disagree among themselves over these things.
    Well what about Sikhs, Hindus Jains, Buddhists, Shintos, Jews and many others who aren't given the flick of overepresentation Muslims are given? Why don't I see Sohei warrior monks, Akalis and Rajput temple guards engaging in violence against westerners, and why don't those communities support the militant actions of their fundamentalist sects?

    It's only the Muslims that you hear about and remember, only those that the TV and papers show because it's more entertaining to show those people, that make excuses for terrorists.
    Any poll, survey or cursory analysis of most Muslim communities will show that this is not true. Muslims are either the ones in the streets screaming death to the west, or they are quiet supporters and sympathisers. I have yet to have seen a Muslim rally against terrorism, or against segments within their religion that are perverting Islam.


    Living in the past. Are you going to hold against modern Islam things that happened centuries ago?
    I will hold Islam's past against it when it seems to still be stuck in it.


    Today's Muslims had nothing to do with this history;
    Then why do they seem to act it out?
    they didn't sanction the wars of the past.
    Actually many of them do. Muslims never want to admit that their past, something that every other religion has managed to do.
    In any case, Islam is not the only big group guilty of spreading by the sword.
    First my qualm is not with Islam. It is with the Muslims who have used their religion to further violence. Second, while other groups have done this, they acknowledge such evil in their past and have made apologies for it. Furthermore, Islam is the major world religion that from its inception has used violence and has been in an almost continuous state of violence.


    Most Muslims are not peace-loving? You seriously stand by this?
    Unfortunately most (not all) Muslims only love peace for themselves, but have no concern for extremists hell bent on wiping us kuffars of the face of the earth.

    How many of their mosques? Only the few you hear about. Not the many who won't think twice about condemning murder.
    It seems that all Mosques talk about it how us evil infidels are oppresing Muslims. I have yet to have seen a friday sermon in which an Imam/Mufti/Mullah has said "Brothers and Sisters, we must stop and fight violence and extremism in our ranks"


    How is apologising for something not admitting guilt for it?
    Because they are guilty of doing nothing to help us. No Muslim stood up against Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri or any such men. No Muslim ever warned us about the 7/7 bombers, even though it was well known that they were in with an extremist group.

    Do you often apologise for things you didn't do?
    I apologise for the things that I have allowed to happen.


    You keep referring to "they", all Muslims, as if they all are in the wrong;as if all Muslims are the same voice with the same opinions.
    I am not talking about all Musims. I know many good Muslims who share my views. The problem is a majority that sympathises with, or actively supports violence and extremism.
    I repeat: the truth is there is no one representative voice of all Muslims; there are too many differences between all those that call themselves Muslim for this to be possible.
    The voice seems to be pretty united when someone publishes a cartoon or quotes a medieval emperor. It also seems to be united in denial when when innocent civilians are blown up in terrorist attacks.
    It's like Islam's Great Schism that hasn't quite happened to the same effect. And to address your point; "We must endure their war", what war is this?
    The war the Islamic Terrorists wage against non-muslims.

    Thousands out of how many?
    Hundreds of thousands out of a million, a million from which not even a mere dozen voices for reason were heard outside of the west. And this is completely excluding the Muslim community outside of Britain.

    Though I'm ready to accept that the response to said cartoons was out of order. Christians put up with blasphemous jokes all the time; occupational hazard of free speech. Muslims should learn to poke fun at themselves too.
    But the problem is this large movement within Islam that has pushed to majority to various degrees of sympathy with clerical fascism.


    Primarily? Yes. And don't forget that Muslims have themselves been the victims of terrorist attacks.
    Yet they don't show any concern for this. The only time they go crazy is when a Muslim is killed(often accidentaly) by a non-muslim.
    I imagine the average Muslim will care about what happens to their own brothers and sisters.
    But the average Muslim seems to care only about other Muslims, without the slightest concern for the other 5 billion of us on earth.
    And clearly you haven't met many Muslims if you claim that the average Muslim cares not for their fellow man, "believer" or not.
    I have met many good muslims in the west, but such people are a minority. I doubt many in the Islamic world give two hoots for us.
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    (Original post by Oswy)
    Just as there has been, and is, more than one kind of Christianity, so it is with Islam. At this moment in time Islam is subject to some major forces in the world, like globalisation, western cultural hegemony, political weakness or excess in traditional Muslim societies as well as significant Muslim populations across the world trying to adjust to alternative social and cultural perspectives.

    But to answer the original question, I don't think any Muslim should be held to account for anything beyond his or her own actions in society. At the same time I think Muslims are suffering from the phenomenon which has been seen in various phases of Christianity; a desire to demonstrate piety and committment to one's religion too easily takes the believer in the direction of increasingly radical/conservative positions. This, to some extent, is what's happening with the use of the veil; young Muslim women who are quite often (though not always) brought up in liberal Muslim households, find themselves seeking to assert their commitment by taking on a more austere show of their religion (which, especially in the case of Islam, is deeply enmeshed in cultural and ethnic senses of identity too).
    I fully agree.

    Sol, I think you're painting the picture very black when you say that you "doubt many in the Islamic world give two hoots for us". People are people everywhere you go, it has been said. Just as not all Americans are President-worshipping Islamophobic warmongering neo-conservatives, so not all citizens in the Islamic world hate the West. They may not be overly concerned with us and our affaris, being as we are distant and foreign in both senses of the word, but that indifference/ignorance doesn't equate to a callous willingness for us all to die. The "fellow human beings" factor is more relevant than one might think.
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    Sol, I think you're painting the picture very black when you say that you "doubt many in the Islamic world give two hoots for us".
    Then why don't they stand up against the oh so many people in their communities who praise 9/11 and 7/7? If I heard someone at my temple advocating violence, I would be the first to give them a slap and a punch.
    People are people everywhere you go, it has been said. Just as not all Americans are President-worshipping Islamophobic warmongering neo-conservatives,
    This is proven by the large number of Americans who stand up and protest the actions being taken by the US government.
    so not all citizens in the Islamic world hate the West.
    The polls and surveys don't say that.

    They may not be overly concerned with us and our affaris, being as we are distant and foreign in both senses of the word,
    But they do spend a good amount of time rejoicing when two planes crash into a civilian office building killing a few thousand, no?

    but that indifference/ignorance doesn't equate to a callous willingness for us all to die. The "fellow human beings" factor is more relevant than one might think.
    I wish I could see things as you do, but after four years of defending Islam and the Muslim world, I finally could not help but see things as I do. Muslims must fight the turn their religion is taking, or watch as it becomes the cause of more and more conflict.
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    I don't know if this has been said, but the issue arises due to the fact that 'muslims' do march and protest when others do wrong to them (guy who got shot in the arm in the police raid, cartoons etc) but not when it's Muslims doing things wrong. If they never marches and protested, this wouldn't be an issue.

    The problem, of course, is that the people who would condemn terrorism are usually different people to the ones marching against cartoons.
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    Of course, there are still a few Muslims around who don't march or protest...
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    (Original post by Agent Smith)
    Of course, there are still a few Muslims around who don't march or protest...
    Look, we're all trying to be serious here, we don't need you coming here and pissing around with your silly jokes.
 
 
 
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