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Fox hunting to be legalised if Tories win 2015 General Election Watch

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    (Original post by redferry)
    Well you know a big part of the job is working with farmers and local communities - the proportion of society that might find foxes 'pests' (of course there are urban foxes but we shall ignore those as clearly they have nothing to do with fox hunting). Surprisingly enough most in rural communities hate the hunts - mainly out of town people making a huge racket and parading around pompously is how they see it. As for farmers they'd much rather just be able to shoot a fox that comes on their land, they know hunting serves no purpose in population control.

    Also are you sure we are talking about the same DEFRA? The DEFRA that relish every opportunity to kill animals, whether it be the badger cull, getting rid of beavers and wild boar or blasting parakeets with a shotgun?
    Can't say I'd heard of DEFRA before, point still stands for the other two though.
    And if the farmers don't like it then don't let them on their land? Beyond that, it's the same old: don't like it? don't partake, but don't try to stop others doing something they want to do because you don't want to do it.
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    (Original post by moonfacebear)
    Would you legalise dog fighting for the purpose of liberty?
    Yes, I would.


    (Original post by moonfacebear)
    The ban has been in place for over 10 years and 'tradition' has not gone anywhere. The same traditions (the dress, the meet, hounds etc) can be found in drag packs and bloodhound packs that hunt artificial and human scent respectively. Fox, stag and harrier packs are still reeling from being told they can't hunt live quarry as they used to but in their slow and painful transition to becoming drag packs they can keep all the traditions they value bar those few that involve a live animal.
    You seem to misunderstand entirely.

    The debate about the worth of fox hunting should be irrelevant to the debate on its legal status. As we have already agreed, human liberty comes before animal welfare. You will not convince me to support the ban by arguing that people have found other ways of emulating it given its prohibition, because my opposition to the ban is not based on my support of the tradition.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Can't say I'd heard of DEFRA before, point still stands for the other two though.
    And if the farmers don't like it then don't let them on their land? Beyond that, it's the same old: don't like it? don't partake, but don't try to stop others doing something they want to do because you don't want to do it.
    Wait you have never heard about the Dapatment for the Environment and Rural Affairs?!

    Why start an argument on something you are clearly so utterly and absolutely ignorant about XD

    I think this is over bud. Your lack of knowledge an any issue surrounding foxes and agriculture is just getting embarrassing now.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Hmmm, I must admit, on most threads if somebody were to post this they would be done for being off topic and non-constructive, but I guess as a section moderator it's fine?
    I feel that it demonstrated my support of the user's response. Much like any other 'quote full reponse and just putting "I agree"' etc. But this isnt my subforum so feel free to report and the mods here can delete if they wish.
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    Fox hunting is just utterly senseless in my view. The majority of the field will never even come close to the fox and are mostly in it for the fun fast paced galloping about, hedge jumping and tweed jacket tradition. All of which is achievable by drag hunting instead. Plus drag hunting is likely to be safer and is always done at the landowners permission, as fox hunting can often result in the field trespassing and turfing up land they don't have permission to be on. To include the mauling of a fox at the very end seems pointless and just for the sake of it. Traditions shouldn't be maintained just because they are traditional.

    I think it's potentially dangerous to hunt/cull a top carnivore anyway. Cull foxes and watch rabbit populations go up and plant biodiversity/crop levels go down. Or maybe that's what the plan is so they have another excuse to snare and shoot rabbits too. Foxes are admittedly stealthy and will go to great lengths to catch prey but improving/electrifying fencing around chickens/ducks is really effective. Regardless, fox hunting as a form of 'pest control' is nonsense and another excuse made up to justify it all. If a fox is really bothering a livestock owner then he will shoot it.

    Considering all of the many challenges we are faced with in this country, why repealing the ban is so high up on the tories agenda is boggling. I don't buy into all this 'protecting rural life and values' and I'm sure it is just to please wealthy landowners. However, I do think that people need to be careful when sitting and condemning fox hunting as cruel when they refuse to have any understanding of how the chicken nuggets they have for dinner actually got to their plate. Animals are first and foremost a commodity in the countryside and there is nothing particularly nice about they way any of them are treated. People are so quick to condemn when it's easy and so quick to bury their heads in the sand when it inconveniences them.
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    (Original post by Reue)
    I feel that it demonstrated my support of the user's response. Much like any other 'quote full reponse and just putting "I agree"' etc. But this isnt my subforum so feel free to report and the mods here can delete if they wish.
    Merely an observation, since several times I have seen a similar thing, sometimes in a more negative light with the meaning along the lines of "....seriously, what?!" be deleted for being off topic, although that's another matter and the message given is poor when informed, since a lot of the time it's not necessarily clear whether it's been deemed trolling or just off topic, but that's, again, a whole different matter.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Wait you have never heard about the Dapatment for the Environment and Rural Affairs?!

    Why start an argument on something you are clearly so utterly and absolutely ignorant about XD

    I think this is over bud. Your lack of knowledge an any issue surrounding foxes and agriculture is just getting embarrassing now.
    *finds relatively obscure government department and acronyses it* You have never heard of [insert acronym]?!

    On the second point, I suppose the same could be said probably about sveral things you have argued about, and well, most of the people arguing both ways on this thread.

    If you insist, I''l just leave you to deal with Diddy then while you skirt around the questions (in yet another thread).
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Merely an observation, since several times I have seen a similar thing, sometimes in a more negative light with the meaning along the lines of "....seriously, what?!" be deleted for being off topic, although that's another matter and the message given is poor when informed, since a lot of the time it's not necessarily clear whether it's been deemed trolling or just off topic, but that's, again, a whole different matter.
    Whether something is deemed as 'off topic' and worthy of being removed has always involved an element of moderator personal judgement.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    A lot. I've worked for the National Trust and Wildlife trust, interned at DEFRA and am currently doing my PhD with the chief scientist on the badger cull pilot.

    Oh and I did my undergraduate dissertation under the leading UK fox expert. On fox territory use.

    So I know a hell of a lot more than you about the effects of killing native animals on the agricultural land and ecosystems I would imagine. But feel free to correct me if you've been studying or working in that field for longer than 6 years.

    I do find it ironic though that people get so worked up about fox hunting when driven grouse shooting is decimating our countryside. The animal welfare implications of fox hunting are unpleasant but at least they haven't destroyed our rural landscape and had huge impacts on conservation policy...
    So with all that knowledge you equate fox attacks to the quaint idea that it is just a few chickens.

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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    So with all that knowledge you equate fox attacks to the quaint idea that it is just a few chickens.

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    Well they can and do take the whole coop of they get in but decent fences are easily installed and you can buy synthetic fox urine which can keep them away.

    Why, what terrible thing do you think they do that could in any way be prevented by fox hunting?

    Its not like they spread disease or anything...
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Well they can and do take the whole coop of they get in but decent fences are easily installed and you can buy synthetic fox urine which can keep them away.

    Why, what terrible thing do you think they do that could in any way be prevented by fox hunting?

    Its not like they spread disease or anything...
    How much does fox proof fencing cost?
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    How much does fox proof fencing cost?
    We used to get ours at £10 per m at the zoo. And I imagine we used a lot less than a farmer would, I'm sure they could get it for less
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    (Original post by redferry)
    We used to get ours at £10 per m at the zoo. And I imagine we used a lot less than a farmer would, I'm sure they could get it for less
    High tensile stock fencing is between £2.50 - £5/m depending on where you are in the country so I doubt you could get it much cheaper. Considering the amount of labor needed for the installment.

    Assuming a single (small) field has a perimeter of 500m that would cost £5000 for just one field. So for an entire farm the cost be somewhere in the £50,000 - £200,000 depending on the farm.

    I don't know any farmers that have that much money to spend on fencing. But surely in the interest of animal welfare this could be subsidised. I'm sure many farmers would welcome this idea with open arms, as long as they didn't have to pay for it. Because I am sure you know that farmers are tighter than a ducks arse.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    High tensile stock fencing is between £2.50 - £5/m depending on where you are in the country so I doubt you could get it much cheaper. Considering the amount of labor needed for the installment.

    Assuming a single (small) field has a perimeter of 500m that would cost £5000 for just one field. So for an entire farm the cost be somewhere in the £50,000 - £200,000 depending on the farm.

    I don't know any farmers that have that much money to spend on fencing. But surely in the interest of animal welfare this could be subsidised. I'm sure many farmers would welcome this idea with open arms, as long as they didn't have to pay for it. Because I am sure you know that farmers are tighter than a ducks arse.
    Ours was only for the penguins - I imagine it would be as low as £5 per m if you were bulk buying. Its no harder to install than normal fencing.

    Well depends how much you value your chickens I guess.

    How exactly is fox hunting going to help with any of this anyway given it doesn't effect fox populations and if anything a vacant fox territory is inviting more foxes into the area? Especially if you haven't fenced your chickens off properly so there is food to attract them.

    They aren't tighter than a ducks arm when it comes to badgers - they're happy to pour money into a cull system that actually makes TB worse.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Ours was only for the penguins - I imagine it would be as low as £5 per m if you were bulk buying. Its no harder to install than normal fencing.

    Well depends how much you value your chickens I guess.

    How exactly is fox hunting going to help with any of this anyway given it doesn't effect fox populations and if anything a vacant fox territory is inviting more foxes into the area? Especially if you haven't fenced your chickens off properly so there is food to attract them.

    They aren't tighter than a ducks arm when it comes to badgers - they're happy to pour money into a cull system that actually makes TB worse.
    Chickens or lambs. I have seen my fair share of shredded lamb.

    It must be harder to install than normal fencing. Fox proof fencing either has a concrete base or is dug into the ground. That is much more work than Stock fencing or even high tensile fencing.

    Hunting with dogs and guns is the most efficient method but this is banned by the Hunting Act.

    To be honest if we just allowed farmers to kill badger like we already do with foxes I don't think it would be such an issue. Badgers are also responsible for killing lambs but there is nothing that you can legally do about it. But lets be honest here, farmers already kill badgers.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Chickens or lambs. I have seen my fair share of shredded lamb.
    Far more lambs die from poor husbandry than from predation, even those that are taken are more likely to be weak or dying or have poor mothers - husbandry!

    Every commercial poultry farm worth it's salt will have predator resistant fencing and probably use guns, traps, snares etc as they see fit. Do they rely on the local hunt happening to ride through a couple of times a week in the season? I don't think so, especially in the vast areas of the country that have never had a fox hound pack and functioned just fine.


    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Hunting with dogs and guns is the most efficient method but this is banned by the Hunting Act.
    Erm no it's not. You are allowed to use no more than two dogs to flush a fox to a gun. Or you could just use the gun....

    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    To be honest if we just allowed farmers to kill badger like we already do with foxes I don't think it would be such an issue. Badgers are also responsible for killing lambs but there is nothing that you can legally do about it. But lets be honest here, farmers already kill badgers.
    Killing badgers randomly is a good way to spread TB by perturbation. The odd scavenged lamb vs 200 + head cattle on the farm down the road.....
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    (Original post by moonfacebear)
    Far more lambs die from poor husbandry than from predation, even those that are taken are more likely to be weak or dying or have poor mothers - husbandry!

    Every commercial poultry farm worth it's salt will have predator resistant fencing and probably use guns, traps, snares etc as they see fit. Do they rely on the local hunt happening to ride through a couple of times a week in the season? I don't think so, especially in the vast areas of the country that have never had a fox hound pack and functioned just fine.

    Erm no it's not. You are allowed to use no more than two dogs to flush a fox to a gun. Or you could just use the gun....

    Killing badgers randomly is a good way to spread TB by perturbation. The odd scavenged lamb vs 200 + head cattle on the farm down the road.....
    Do lambs die from predation? Yes. Is it a problem? Yes.

    Using dogs are guns to kill is the most efficient method, if you cannot shoot the fox you can then send the dog to kill the fox.

    It isn't random.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Do lambs die from predation? Yes. Is it a problem? Yes.
    Lamb mortality happens and is far too high on many farms but the fox is an insignificant part of that. If farmers have a problem fox then they shoot it.

    Why would they need a pack of 2 dozen hounds, 30 mounted followers and numerous folk on foot/ quad bikes to go running round their land looking for a fox?


    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Using dogs are guns to kill is the most efficient method, if you cannot shoot the fox you can then send the dog to kill the fox.
    This sentence leads me to believe you don't really know what you're talking about.....

    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    It isn't random.
    So farmers are going to survey the badger population on their farm, their disease status and consult the published research to determine the best way to carry out a cull?
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    Chickens or lambs. I have seen my fair share of shredded lamb.

    It must be harder to install than normal fencing. Fox proof fencing either has a concrete base or is dug into the ground. That is much more work than Stock fencing or even high tensile fencing.

    Hunting with dogs and guns is the most efficient method but this is banned by the Hunting Act.

    To be honest if we just allowed farmers to kill badger like we already do with foxes I don't think it would be such an issue. Badgers are also responsible for killing lambs but there is nothing that you can legally do about it. But lets be honest here, farmers already kill badgers.
    You know foxes killing lambs is very rare, if it happens at all? Normally they wait for them to die then munch on them. Foxes are scavengers not predators and if they do hunt it is on small mammals and birds.

    Our fences are always dug in, foxproof just goes deeper. It doesn't take long especially with a JCB.

    No it isn't! Poison is! How many times. Hunting with dogs and guns kills very few foxes. Not enough to bring the population down.

    Right so what happens when a badger are killed on a small scale? Do you know???

    The other badgers from the area run around all over the place and spread TB, meaning the incidence of TB in cattle in surrounding areas rises. Yes, it goes up. So allowing farmers to just shoot badgers makes TB worse. As do the current culling methods. Source: My PhD supervisor was the zoologist on the badger cull pilot. Also its pretty rare (although not as rare) for a badger to kill a lamb. They mainly eat earthworms.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    A lot. I've worked for the National Trust and Wildlife trust, interned at DEFRA and am currently doing my PhD with the chief scientist on the badger cull pilot.

    Oh and I did my undergraduate dissertation under the leading UK fox expert. On fox territory use.

    So I know a hell of a lot more than you about the effects of killing native animals on the agricultural land and ecosystems I would imagine. But feel free to correct me if you've been studying or working in that field for longer than 6 years.

    I do find it ironic though that people get so worked up about fox hunting when driven grouse shooting is decimating our countryside. The animal welfare implications of fox hunting are unpleasant but at least they haven't destroyed our rural landscape and had huge impacts on conservation policy...
    I bet he wasn't expecting that response :cool:
 
 
 
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