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Fox hunting to be legalised if Tories win 2015 General Election Watch

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    (Original post by gladders)
    So by your logic, something done by rich white people is inherently wrong? What's next, banning yacht owning?

    If that's your philosophy on life, can't you see it as inherently intolerant - attacking a group, admittedly a highly privileged group, by banning something that some of them like to do?

    And that's entirely separate from the social and practical function of hunting with dogs to control the fox population. On an animal welfare point of view, the debate on its utility remains open, but it certainly wasn't banned out of concern for the fox but simply to **** a snook at a perceived unpopular social class. That's bad policy.



    Well, that's by the by; Parliament is what decides policy and if the Tories go into the election proposing a vote on whether or not to keep it, then that's entirely fair.
    Are you confused?

    Where, did I say it's wrong because it is an elitist activity. I didn't even call for the ban to be repealed..... :rolleyes:

    I merely said that the tories are elitist's with their fixation on this issue for the last decade.......

    On animal welfare point of view it is closed. It is cruel and we all know it.

    It isn't about pest control, it's about an activity in which a group of the elite enjoy.

    Yes but my problem with the tories is their fixation on elitist issue when issue's which effect close to 50% of the population are not addressed.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Nice try, but I'm still unconvinced.
    Reread what drivel; you wrote and come back later.
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    (Original post by ridwan12)
    Reread what drivel; you wrote and come back later.
    Clearly I find my own argument convincing, which is why I wrote it; certainly more than, "LOOOOOOL".

    Actually you are not even disagreeing with me, e.g. here:

    Where, did I say it's wrong because it is an elitist activity.

    ...

    It isn't about pest control, it's about an activity in which a group of the elite enjoy.
    you agree that you oppose fox hunting because it is practised by people you don't like and you want to take their toys away from them.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    The choice isn't between having meat and having no food. If we banned meat, no one would starve. People want meat because they enjoy the taste and the texture and the wider variety of dishes it makes possible. There's also an element of tradition, e.g. Sunday Roast, turkey at Christmas, etc.

    Very well. Some people enjoy a tradition of killing foxes. What's the difference, other than that you don't like the fox people, but do like the Christmas turkey people?


    I'm not going to dispute your beliefs with you, and I accept there are people who are sincerely (although perhaps not many consistently) opposed to halal meat production on animal welfare grounds. There is also a large number of people who just want a stick they can use to beat muslims with.
    That's an interesting point. Food supplies would be even more scarce without meat though, it has to be said. And humans have been eating meat since the beginning of time. Our digestive systems are built for making full use of the 'healthy fats, proteins and nutrients found in animal foods.' Also, 'humans have much shorter digestive systems than herbivores and don’t have the specialized organs to digest cellulose, the main fiber in plants.' Info from here.

    I think that we should hunt animals in controlled quantities. Too many animals are reared only to be wasted because people didn't buy their meat or had to throw it out because it went past its sell by date. The 'tradition' of killing foxes achieves nothing but perhaps making a few people's lives a bit easier. The tradition of eating turkey at least provides food and nutrients that help the human race to thrive. Perhaps if people ate the foxes they hunted it would be a different story - but at present they're only being hunted for entertainment or because they're an inconvenience.

    I agree with you there. But that's going off on another tangent, so let's leave the issue of Muslims and halal meat there.
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    (Original post by Reluire)
    That's an interesting point. Food supplies would be even more scarce without meat though, it has to be said.
    They wouldn't. Meat production is very inefficient so we would actually get more food if we stopped the food chain just before the animals and ate the food that we currently feed them.
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    Lets wipe out all the vermin scum in the world, start with humans first of course. Fox hunting is one of the last traditions of the ruling classes, and the biggest supporters of these disgusting traditions are the Royal family, shame on those Windsors and their blood cultures.
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    (Original post by Reluire)
    That's an interesting point. Food supplies would be even more scarce without meat though, it has to be said. And humans have been eating meat since the beginning of time. Our digestive systems are built for making full use of the 'healthy fats, proteins and nutrients found in animal foods.' Also, 'humans have much shorter digestive systems than herbivores and don’t have the specialized organs to digest cellulose, the main fiber in plants.' Info from here.

    I think that we should hunt animals in controlled quantities. Too many animals are reared only to be wasted because people didn't buy their meat or had to throw it out because it went past its sell by date. The 'tradition' of killing foxes achieves nothing but perhaps making a few people's lives a bit easier. The tradition of eating turkey at least provides food and nutrients that help the human race to thrive. Perhaps if people at the foxes they hunted it would be a different story - but at present they're only being hunted for entertainment or because they're an inconvenience.

    I agree with you there. But that's going off on another tangent, so let's leave the issue of Muslims and halal meat there.
    Who eats foxmeat?
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    (Original post by Reluire)
    That's an interesting point. Food supplies would be even more scarce without meat though, it has to be said.
    Food supplies wouldn't become more scarce, first because they're not scarce, and second because it would free up agricultural land used to grow crops to feed animals to instead grow crops to feed people. The total calories produced for human consumption would rise.

    And humans have been eating meat since the beginning of time.
    As they've been hunting animals for fun.

    I think that we should hunt animals in controlled quantities. Too many animals are reared only to be wasted because people didn't buy their meat or had to throw it out because it went past its sell by date. The 'tradition' of killing foxes achieves nothing but perhaps making a few people's lives a bit easier. The tradition of eating turkey at least provides food and nutrients that help the human race to thrive. Perhaps if people at the foxes they hunted it would be a different story - but at present they're only being hunted for entertainment or because they're an inconvenience.
    How many foxes does the average huntsman kill a year? I know nothing about this subculture but let's do a back of the envelope calculation. Say they go fox hunting every other weekend, kill 3 foxes each time, and 20 people attend the event. You get on the order of one fox per participant per year. Perhaps five. Certainly not 50. So the number of animals saved by banning fox hunting is equivalent not to banning meat, but rather to going without meat for about a week a year. It's one less chicken.

    So if you accept that someone can go to the supermarket now and buy a chicken to eat just because he likes chicken, I don't understand how you can object to fox hunting.
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    (Original post by ridwan12)
    Are you confused?

    Where, did I say it's wrong because it is an elitist activity. I didn't even call for the ban to be repealed..... :rolleyes:
    Oh, I'm sorry, I guess when you posted 'Fox hunting with dogs on a horse in the countryside is elitist and cruel. How many average earning UK citizens actually even took part in this.', you actually meant something entirely different from what you said?

    I merely said that the tories are elitist's with their fixation on this issue for the last decade.......
    You said nothing of the sort. Please quote where in your last two posts you even suggested such a thing, because I can't see it.

    On animal welfare point of view it is closed. It is cruel and we all know it.
    Not so. According to certain quarters, the lot of the fox has worsened with the ban. More are suffering and dying by other means of pest control that promises slower, more painful, and less clean deaths.

    It isn't about pest control, it's about an activity in which a group of the elite enjoy.
    So what?

    Yes but my problem with the tories is their fixation on elitist issue when issue's which effect close to 50% of the population are not addressed.
    Fixation? Hardly. And just because it's a niche subject doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed. The government is responsible for everyone, not just what's the most popular in the Islington quarter.
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    I think they should actually focus on things that affect Britain in general rather than an upper class leisure activity. That's not a snipe at the upper class, but it's more the fact that in the grand scheme of things, Britain is a mess, and so this debate on culture, tradition and foxes, though justified, doesn't seem to be the biggest priority.
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    Lots of really awful stuff will happen if the Tories win the election.

    This is but one of them.
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    This is one of the many, many reasons not to vote Tory

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    As someone who has done a lot of different types of hunting I think I am qualified to speak on the matter.


    Reality and the fake illusion of animal welfare.


    Fox hunting is no different to fishing for Wild Salmon. It is the same process. You maim a animal and kill it.


    No matter what the animal right activists say there is always going to be a period of psychological trauma for a animal upon death. It doesn't matter if its a Cow going into the slaughter house or a Fish gasping for air.


    The same can be said for nature. Right now outside there are Owls which are slowly killing Rats and there are Foxes which are eating young Chicks whole. How about we take it up a notch?
    There are Sheep being eaten alive by Wolves.


    No matter how much you try and shield yourself from the reality of nature this is what happens on planet Earth and it is as nature intended it to be.


    How the Fox hunting ban has damaged animal welfare.


    We live in a Capitalist country where people will only invest time & money into private property if it is profitable. There is very little charity for wildlife and not even an army of charity muggers could change this fact.


    Since the Fox hunting ban the only things which have been built in the countryside are Wind Farms and Fracking sites. Both of these damage animal welfare. Wind Farms create noise pollution and Fracking sites cause pollution into the surrounding water tables.


    The total absense of pro-wildlife investment is direct result of the Fox Hunting ban. Before the ban took place there was a huge industry in providing Fox Hunters with all the essentails which they needed for their big event. This created a lot of jobs but it also encouraged land owners and local villagers to take pride in their community.


    Most of the wild land ideal for Foxes has been either destroyed or simply neglected to the point where nothing can live there.


    I personally think we will see Red Foxes going extinct soon because no money is being directed into rural areas.


    Foxes and livestock


    It is true that Foxes can cause a lot of damage to livestock on farms but the common arguement is that if a Fox kills some livestock is the Farmers fault.


    The trouble with this view point is that most farmers simply cannot afford the prefered methods of pest control which animal rights activists campaign for. Individual family farmers are a dieing breed and the majority of them are poor compared to the farmer Stereotype who drives a bran new Landrover & eats steak every night. Those farmers are not farmers at all. They are estate keepers who are employed by big Corporations.


    These Corporations rent land all over the globe and have little to no concern about animal welfare because all they care about is profit. Sure they will keep within the law but most of the time they will cut corners and the result is a countryside where wildlife dies.


    The future, Permaculture, Wildlife & Nature.


    As the world oil production slows down and other countries like China & India demand more than their fair share the cost of monoculture (plough farming of 1 crop per field) will increase and it will no longer be viable. We will have to invest in Permaculture where nature is modified to support the most food grown per acre. In doing so native Predators such as Foxes will have to be kept in line to preserve the harmony of the ecosystem.


    In short Hunt-Sabateour tears won't be enough to convince people to go without their daily required food intake.


    Foxes are going to have to be culled and while it may not be Fox hunting the use of Dogs is almost certain. The food for a hound is less expensive than all the traps & humane killing methods which the animal rights activists suggest. In the end it will come to what method is the most sustainable and that method is called ...................... Nature!

    Nature & Evolution has had millions of years to design the perfect predator for certain eco-system yet man always thinks he is right.

    The cold hard truth.


    Human beings using dogs to hunt Foxes is just a domesticated form of nature. It is efficient and sustainable. It has been used for hundreds of years and nature its self with evolution designed dogs to be what they are: Predators that live off the energy of other creatures.


    The Fox hunting ban is a instance of man kind thinking he is better than nature and the natural laws of this planet.
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    Killing animals for sporting purposes is absolutely disgusting. The only times animals should ever be killed is for consumption or if it poses a significant risk to the welfare of another human being or animal.

    (Original post by BethhPhill)
    I think they should actually focus on things that affect Britain in general rather than an upper class leisure activity.
    This will never happen. The political elite serve themselves and their own interests. They haven't cared about the average person for decades and won't until there's a revolution that wakes them up and strikes fear into them.
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    1) Originally, the fox hunting ban was introduced to stop the house of commons discussing the Iraq War.

    They discussed fox hunting endlessly instead.

    2) It was just another attack on traditional Britain and values by Labour, who hated Britain, just like Ed Miliband and his late father did. They would abolish the British flag if they could.

    3) Labour wanted to make everyone in society equal and force multiculturalism on them. Fox hunting and the countryside elite were victims of this. They hate elites because they think everyone in society is "equal".

    4) they should do it before the election, to win votes.

    5) the elites are elite because they worked damm hard and studied damm hard and deserve the fruits of their work.
    Labour want to hand it out instead and de-motivate people from doing the above.


    The Conservatives realise the goal of a poor person should be to better themselves, and allow these opportunities to be available.
    Labour think only the government can help people. No, people help themselves.
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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    This is one of the many, many reasons not to vote Tory

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    Absolute nonsense.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Absolute nonsense.
    I can see from your post that we disagree so fundamentally that me debating with you would achieve nothing except derail the thread. I won't rebuke your points, I just believe they are completely invalid.

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    (Original post by Obiejess)
    I can see from your post that we disagree so fundamentally that me debating with you would achieve nothing except derail the thread. I won't rebuke your points, I just believe they are completely invalid.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Each one is absolutely valid and absolutely on topic.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Each one is absolutely valid and absolutely on topic.
    On topic - yes. Fundamentally wrong -yes. I believe your post is nonsense as much as you believe mine is. But let's not go there, as nothing productive will come from it.

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    Yeee, too many of them buggers in my area.

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