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    If I wear makeup it's not to impress or appease anyone, I just like expressing myself with different colours and styles etc. For me, it's no different to having a different hairstyle each day, or choosing which clothes to wear. I like my appearance to be a reflection of me, rather than a reflection of what others think I should look like.
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    Feminists aren't immune to standards that are imposed on women in our society. Plenty of feminists wear make-up, dresses, shave their legs and armpits, monitor their weight etc. because they have bought up in a society that says they are only attractive if they do all of those things. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be seen as attractive to those we are attracted to; feminists only have an issue with the attitude that that is the only thing women can do. And then if a feminist does reject those things that our society demands we do in order to be attractive she is seen as bitter and only interested in feminism because she can't attract a man anyway.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    In this thread alone many women have admitted to wearing makeup at least partly to attract men. You are naive if you think it is not often a motivation, and definitely if you think no girls do it at least partly for that reason.
    The girls in this thread are not representative of all girls. And anyway, don't men do things with their appearance to attract mates as well? Like working out or dressing extra nice or whatever. Surely make up is similar to that?
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    Since when did make up make a woman feminine?
    Since it made them.. Pretty.

    Are you a male feminist or a female one.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Since it made them.. Pretty.

    Are you a male feminist or a female one.
    Femininity is a personality trait. Just like you get fem men, you get masculine women.

    Make up enhances ones superficial beauty. It does not make them feminine.
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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    Femininity is a personality trait. Just like you get fem men, you get masculine women.

    Make up enhances ones superficial beauty. It does not make them feminine.
    Femininity and masculinity are also superficial. A man who shows off his muscles is enhancing his masculinity, a woman who wears makeup is enhancing her femininity.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    It has been minutes since you posted. Have some patience. I am a strong independent black woman and neither you nor the patriarchy can make me respond within a certain timeframe.

    Alternatively, see the post you quoted for some rebuttal of the points you have already made.
    It's not funny to mock black women or a saying that perpetuates an unrealistic image of black women.

    The purpose of this thread is to suggest that feminists can not claim to be feminists because they wear make up.

    I think the obsession with what women do with their bodies is disgusting. How about some choice?

    I think your need to reduce feminism is unnecessary, feminism has served well in the past and continues to help women all over the world on issues that are detrimental to their wellbeing. Just because feminists don't talk about male issues doesn't mean they don't acknowledge them.

    Sexism works both ways, I find with men society tends to focus on masculinity and whether a man is a real man etc and it's disgusting - men should be able to be whatever size, shape, height, colour without being reduced to having little worth.

    Likewise, women should be able to dress behave (obviously not illegal) without being seen as worthless.

    With respect to make up, I don't know why a significant amount of women wear it and to be honest, if they want to wear it why not? Its their choice. I know men who wear make up and I don't see the problem either.

    People have a right to believe whatever they want. Also not all women identify as feminists.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    The question is what motivates the choice. The choices made by women who have been conditioned their entire lives to prioritise their appearance are likely to be fettered. And while makeup is so ubiquitous, when will that conditioning end?
    Make up and hair removal are definitely conditioned, when it's summer especially I always shave my armpits because if you don't people will stare and make comments - and I've been taught that that's what I should do since I hit puberty.Make up I think less so because there are girls who don't give two ****s and hardly ever wear make up or much of it, but there's quite a few situations where I would refuse to go if I couldn't wear make up or I'd feel extremely uncomfortable without it.

    There's a lot of things it's hard to juggle in terms of feminism, while it's okay to do them it's important to realise that the reasons we do things like wear make up and shave are problematic.
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    It's important to remember that the pressure to wear make-up does stem from the patriarchy as women are taught our value is based on our appearances.

    That aside, however, the whole point of feminism is the ability to choose. If you want to wear make-up, you damn well can.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    This wouldn't readjust society's attitude. The only way society will ever be able to accept that makeup is not an expected part of a woman's appearance is if women take action themselves to not conform to that expectation themselves. Your suggestion is rather like the idea that not being racist or shaming those who were would have had much of an impact in 1950s USA, when it is plain that what was needed was solidarity action by the targets of this racism. The sources of real influence on public opinion, like businesses and the media, make a great deal of money from makeup, and the two cents action by disparate individuals is not going to change an ingrained social attitude.



    I'm not 'missing' anything; the thread is aimed specifically at makeup. Shaving your legs is not as objectifying as replacing the natural skin and features of your face with object versions. Though you seem here to be supporting my argument that women should abstain from these practices if they resent the expectations that they be a matter of course; yet you don't agree with this when it comes to makeup...



    A good thing I didn't suggest this, then. I suggested women who didn't want to wear makeup abstained from it en masse.



    Again, I didn't suggest this. I suggested that women who didn't want to wear makeup abstained from it en masse so that society would grow not to expect them to do something they didn't want to and punished them for not doing so. This isn't a childish gesture and it would enhance the liberty of these women to do as they wished without impinging on the liberty of those that wanted different things. I really don't see how you've managed to interpret anything like what you've said from my posts.
    I know you've made this thread specifically about make-up, but I don't believe you can look at it in isolation. I also think you can be opposed to the expectation that all women will wear make-up, whilst still wishing to do so yourself - that's why I suggest it'd be better for everyone to demonstrate their beliefs by ignoring the expectation and doing as they wish, rather than feeling like it's contradictory to their feminism if they choose to wear make-up.
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    Also consider that women certainly don't only wear makeup to attract men, and sometimes it might not be a factor at all. Bisexual and Lesbian women frequently wear makeup.
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    (Original post by taylorg292)
    Make up and hair removal are definitely conditioned, when it's summer especially I always shave my armpits because if you don't people will stare and make comments - and I've been taught that that's what I should do since I hit puberty.Make up I think less so because there are girls who don't give two ****s and hardly ever wear make up or much of it, but there's quite a few situations where I would refuse to go if I couldn't wear make up or I'd feel extremely uncomfortable without it.

    There's a lot of things it's hard to juggle in terms of feminism, while it's okay to do them it's important to realise that the reasons we do things like wear make up and shave are problematic.
    Well said.
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    (Original post by suirrel)
    The girls in this thread are not representative of all girls. And anyway, don't men do things with their appearance to attract mates as well? Like working out or dressing extra nice or whatever. Surely make up is similar to that?
    No, it isn't. Exercising and dressing well isn't comparable to replacing the natural skin and features of your face with object versions.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Incompatible?

    The vast majority of women wear make-up. The vast majority of men don't. Why is that?

    Do female feminists on here see any awkward contradictions between wearing makeup on a regular basis and their support for an equal society where women are not objectified or their appearance made a defining feature of them as people any more than it is with men?

    Is it a healthy practice when looked at on its own? Does it encourage a healthy body image and self-esteem?

    Food for thought:

    'Concealer'













    I don't wear makeup and I know a vast majority of girls who don't either


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    (Original post by Green_Pink)
    I know you've made this thread specifically about make-up, but I don't believe you can look at it in isolation. I also think you can be opposed to the expectation that all women will wear make-up, whilst still wishing to do so yourself - that's why I suggest it'd be better for everyone to demonstrate their beliefs by ignoring the expectation and doing as they wish, rather than feeling like it's contradictory to their feminism if they choose to wear make-up.
    You've reasserted your original points while completely failing to respond to my criticisms to these points, which doesn't male for a fruitful exchange of views.
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    (Original post by _Charlotte15)
    I don't wear makeup and I know a vast majority of girls who don't either


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    Quite frankly I don't believe you but if you are being truthful then your situation is wildly anomalous to the rest of society.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Quite frankly I don't believe you but if you are being truthful then your situation is wildly anomalous to the rest of society.
    You obviously plaster yourself in makeup then and know no better. Many girls just like to show their natural beauty rather than wipe a load of paint on their faces but clearly you aren't one of them.


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    (Original post by Olderandwiser23)
    Yes but we wear make up in order to continue to attempt to achieve the photoshopped perfect look we see in the magazines. How is that not obvious? We have pictures of celebrity perfection thrown at us all day all saying "oh I use blah blah make up up" etc we all buy it to look like the celeb spikes person.
    You have failed to properly respond. I will simply re-post what I said:

    How do you propose we educate women out of self-esteem issues as a result of makeup, or society out of the expectation? The point is that society expects women to wear makeup and punishes them when they don't; the surest and most permanent way of combatting this is for women to boycott makeup altogether and readjust society's prejudice.


    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Its a crying shame that feminism today seeks to destroy feminine behavior.

    Yes to equality under the law, no to militants.
    What are you taking about? Where is militant action or a desire to destroy feminine behaviour in this discussion? You know I'm not a feminist.
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    (Original post by _Charlotte15)
    You obviously plaster yourself in makeup then and know no better. Many girls just like to show their natural beauty rather than wipe a load of paint on their faces but clearly you aren't one of them.


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    Clearly, since I'm not a girl at all.

    There's no need to be so upset. I'm simply observing that society doesn't reflect your claims.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Clearly, since I'm not a girl at all.

    There's no need to be so upset. I'm simply observing that society doesn't reflect your claims.
    Well why are you claiming me not wearing makeup to be false when your not even a girl?! You have no idea


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