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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    It's not funny to mock black women or a saying that perpetuates an unrealistic image of black women.
    Do give it a rest.

    The purpose of this thread is to suggest that feminists can not claim to be feminists because they wear make up.
    The purpose of this thread has been to discuss whether makeup is compatible with feminist values or not, and several women have said themselves that it is not - it is a reasonable discussion.

    Replacing your natural skin and features with object versions is not an obvious bed-mate with a movement determined to combat female objectification, nor when it is expected by society of women and overwhelmingly done only by women with a movement determined to combat gender inequality and a general overemphasis on the importance of a woman's appearance.

    I think the obsession with what women do with their bodies is disgusting. How about some choice?
    There's nothing disgusting about identifying a possible contradiction between feminist values and makeup. You seem to be getting extremely defensive and I wonder if that is because you realise like other posters here that there may be some truth in this and it is an uncomfortable realisation for you.

    Nothing that has been discussed here has included anything even remotely resembling a suggestion to remove choice. Indeed, many of my posts have argued that women shouldn't feel pressured to wear makeup. The starting point of the discussion was asking whether feminism and makeup were incompatible, which is a perfectly reasonable question which many women here have conceded is at least partly the case.

    I think your need to reduce feminism is unnecessary, feminism has served well in the past and continues to help women all over the world on issues that are detrimental to their wellbeing. Just because feminists don't talk about male issues doesn't mean they don't acknowledge them.
    But it does mean that their claims to be a movement for gender inequality is complete balls.

    I'm not 'reducing' feminism. You enjoy making bold sweeping statements and accusations but very rarely are they explained or evidenced.

    Whatever your opinions on feminism, this discussion is not about how positive it is as a movement but about the relationship between makeup and feminism.

    Sexism works both ways, I find with men society tends to focus on masculinity and whether a man is a real man etc and it's disgusting - men should be able to be whatever size, shape, height, colour without being reduced to having little worth.
    How is this relevant to this discussion? You seem to have found a discussion that involves feminism and immediately switched into defensive mode with a lengthy defence of the movement, when this is completely inappropriate in the context of this thread.

    Likewise, women should be able to dress behave (obviously not illegal) without being seen as worthless.
    I agree, and we all think so much better of you now that you've claimed some moral high ground, even if it is situated miles away from the battlegrounds of the present discussion.

    With respect to make up, I don't know why a significant amount of women wear it and to be honest, if they want to wear it why not? Its their choice. I know men who wear make up and I don't see the problem either.
    That it's a matter of individual choice does not mean it cannot be incompatible with feminist values. 'It's her choice' is not a valid argument against everything.

    People have a right to believe whatever they want. Also not all women identify as feminists.
    Obviously.
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    (Original post by _Charlotte15)
    Well why are you claiming me not wearing makeup to be false when your not even a girl?! You have no idea


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    Go back and read my post again, and try to understand it fully before posting again. That I'm not a girl is completely irrelevant.
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    (Original post by themoldypeaches)
    I think there is more to make-up than simply looking 'attractive' to males or females. For example, I love wearing purple lipstick, I don't think it makes me look more attractive at all (doesn't make me look worse either). It is an aesthetic I am going for, a style choice that has far less to do with appearing sexually alluring and a whole lot to do with creative expression. There are a lot of different reasons why women wear make-up, people forget it can be an art, it can be a booster of self-confidence when someone's skin is really bad, it can be an expression of personality (which is how I often use it), it can also be used to simply enhance beauty.

    I am a feminist, I don't see make-up going inherently against feminism. There is a difference between wanting to look good and wanting to be reduced to your looks by others. Admiring a woman's beauty does not mean you are objectifying her. Objectification happens when you see her as nothing more than her body. Hope this helps!
    Couldn't put it any better myself.
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    (Original post by corax)
    If you think make up somehow goes against feminism - you're missing the point of what feminism is. It's a woman's freedom and choice to do what she wants without restraints, in the same way as men.
    No, I don't think I am, and I'm going to re-post what I said to another poster to illustrate why. No-one is suggesting women aren't at liberty to make their own choices, what is being suggested is that some of these choices might be hypocritical with their stated feminist values.

    Replacing your natural skin and features with object versions is not an obvious bed-mate with a movement determined to combat female objectification, nor when it is expected by society of women and overwhelmingly done only by women with a movement determined to combat gender inequality and a general overemphasis on the importance of a woman's appearance.

    Men haven't been socially conditioned to from childhood.
    It is seen as opposing masculinity. Most men are of course in favour of being perceived as 'masculine'.

    I don't see why men can't wear make up in the same way as women. In fact most actors of course will wear it regularly when on set.


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    You acknowledge that women are socially conditioned to wear makeup, yet you don't see any contradictions with the feminist notion that women should not be objectified or female appearance be emphasised more than men in conforming to this expectation?
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Do give it a rest.



    The purpose of this thread has been to discuss whether makeup is compatible with feminist values or not, and several women have said themselves that it is not - it is a reasonable discussion.

    Replacing your natural skin and features with object versions is not an obvious bed-mate with a movement determined to combat female objectification, nor when it is expected by society of women and overwhelmingly done only by women with a movement determined to combat gender inequality and a general overemphasis on the importance of a woman's appearance.



    There's nothing disgusting about identifying a possible contradiction between feminist values and makeup. You seem to be getting extremely defensive and I wonder if that is because you realise like other posters here that there may be some truth in this and it is an uncomfortable realisation for you.

    Nothing that has been discussed here has included anything even remotely resembling a suggestion to remove choice. Indeed, many of my posts have argued that women shouldn't feel pressured to wear makeup. The starting point of the discussion was asking whether feminism and makeup were incompatible, which is a perfectly reasonable question which many women here have conceded is at least partly the case.



    But it does mean that their claims to be a movement for gender inequality is complete balls.

    I'm not 'reducing' feminism. You enjoy making bold sweeping statements and accusations but very rarely are they explained or evidenced.

    Whatever your opinions on feminism, this discussion is not about how positive it is as a movement but about the relationship between makeup and feminism.



    How is this relevant to this discussion? You seem to have found a discussion that involves feminism and immediately switched into defensive mode with a lengthy defence of the movement, when this is completely inappropriate in the context of this thread.



    I agree, and we all think so much better of you now that you've claimed some moral high ground, even if it is situated miles away from the battlegrounds of the present discussion.



    That it's a matter of individual choice does not mean it cannot be incompatible with feminist values. 'It's her choice' is not a valid argument against everything.



    Obviously.
    I'm sorry but what you said was unnecessary and weird in the context of the thread: to refer to being a independent black women was not appropriate. Saying "give it a rest" doesn't make what you posted any less ridiculous or non offensive.

    You're eager to see replies that agree with you but not those that disagree and suggest that it is compatible.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    I'm sorry but what you said was unnecessary and weird in the context of the thread: to refer to being a independent black women was not appropriate. Saying "give it a rest" doesn't make what you posted any less ridiculous or non offensive.
    You enjoy feeling indignant. It was a harmless joke.

    You're eager to see replies that agree with you but not those that disagree and suggest that it is compatible.
    Nonsense. I'm eager for open discussion which is why I have thoroughly responded to all of your points; you have not afforded me the same courtesy.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    To a white, middle class, male perhaps.
    I don't think racism, sexism or class snobbery has any place in reasonable debate; please leave these out. None of these things has any impact on how healthy someone's sense of humour is.

    Once again I note that you've seized on attacking something completely unimportant while failing to respond to almost all of my responses to you.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I don't think racism, sexism or class snobbery has any place in reasonable debate; please leave these out. None of these things has any impact on how healthy someone's sense of humour is.

    Once again I note that you've seized on attacking something completely unimportant while failing to respond to almost all of my responses to you.
    Lmao, you're accusing me of those things. I'm not the one who brought race into this discussion. You were the one who talked about black women for some odd reason and made them the point of your joke. I was highlighting your privilege. You're blind to how offensive your previous statement was.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    Lmao, you're accusing me of those things. I'm not the one who brought race into this discussion. You were the one who talked about black women for some odd reason and made them the point of your joke. I was highlighting your privilege. You're blind to how offensive your previous statement was.
    My statement was clearly a harmless joke applying the common urban quotation 'I am a strong, independent black woman' to myself. It was funny because it clearly didn't fit being applied to me on two levels. It did not 'bring race into the discussion' in any way that was offensive to anyone with a mature sense of humour.

    Your statement was deadly serious and cited my race, my gender and my socioeconomic position - none of which you are even in any place to know - as reasons for something I've said to be responded to in a certain way. Unlike my joke, your statement was serious and was personal and invidious on three separate levels. I'm not the one who's lacking self-awareness here.

    For the third time, I note that you have failed to respond to the large majority of my responses to you.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    My statement was clearly a harmless joke applying the common urban quotation 'I am a strong, independent black woman' to myself. It was funny because it clearly didn't fit being applied to me on two levels. It did not 'bring race into the discussion' in any way that was offensive to anyone with a mature sense of humour.

    Your statement was deadly serious and cited my race, my gender and my socioeconomic position - none of which you are even in any place to know - as reasons for something I've said to be responded to in a certain way. Unlike my joke, your statement was serious and was personal and invidious on three separate levels. I'm not the one who's lacking self-awareness here.

    For the third time, I note that you have failed to respond to the large majority of my responses to you.
    I didn't realise you were in a position to dictate what a mature sense of humour is?

    I've posted on several of the same threads you have posted on. Enough for me to gather that you fall within those categories.

    Your joke may have affected many users who are black and female. You can't accept that.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    I didn't realise you were in a position to dictate what a mature sense of humour is?
    I am in a position to realise when someone is deliberately interpreting with indignation what would be a harmless joke to any reasonable person. Notice how you are the only person to have raised that comment as an issue at all in this seven-page thread with scores of other posters, mostly female.

    I've posted on several of the same threads you have posted on. Enough for me to gather that you fall within those categories.
    My race, gender or class is of absolutely no relevance to my opinions or how they should be treated. That you think otherwise hints at genuine racism, sexism and class snobbery, which is what makes you accusing me of racism and offensiveness for humourously applying the 'independent black woman' persona to myself all the more ridiculous.

    Your joke may have affected many users who are black and female. You can't accept that.
    I don't accept that it could have caused offence to any reasonable, mature-minded person.

    I note for the fourth time that you have failed to respond to the bulk of my responses to you.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I am in a position to realise when someone is deliberately interpreting with indignation what would be a harmless joke to any reasonable person. Notice how you are the only person to have raised that comment as an issue at all in this seven-page thread with scores of other posters, mostly female.



    My race, gender or class is of absolutely no relevance to my opinions or how they should be treated. That you think otherwise hints at genuine racism, sexism and class snobbery, which is what makes you accusing me of racism and offensiveness for humourously applying the 'independent black woman' persona to myself all the more ridiculous.



    I don't accept that it could have caused offence to any reasonable, mature-minded person.

    I note for the fourth time that you have failed to respond to the bulk of my responses to you.
    It's casual racism, you don't see it as racist.

    You're represented mostly positively in society- and the "independent black women" thing, is a weird portrayal of black women that isn't appropriate in this debate, it doesn't affect you because you're at an advantage. That's it.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    It's casual racism, you don't see it as racist.
    I don't see it as racist because it wasn't racist. You have yet to explain how it was as I have explained how your comments have not only been racist but sexist and socioeconomically snobbish as well.

    You're represented mostly positively in society- and the "independent black women" thing, is a weird portrayal of black women that isn't appropriate in this debate, it doesn't affect you because you're at an advantage. That's it.
    What you seem to be suggesting is that because white, middle-class men are often more represented in our society, as a white, middle-class man myself I am a racist for making any race-related jokes. Obviously this is absolutely ridiculous and if nothing else enormously patronising towards the very people you self-righteously claim to defend.

    I note for the fifth time that you have failed to respond to the bulk of my responses to you in our original discussion. You've even started to fail to properly respond to my individual points in this sub-discussion.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I don't accept that it could have caused offence to any reasonable, mature-minded person.
    You're correct. Any reasonable person. But this is a feminist.

    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    It's casual racism, you don't see it as racist.

    You're represented mostly positively in society- and the "independent black women" thing, is a weird portrayal of black women that isn't appropriate in this debate, it doesn't affect you because you're at an advantage. That's it.
    Oh yes! White privilege is here boys! Patriarchy + White Privilege! Aren't we blessed.

    Oh, and aren't you racist and sexist? Suggesting black women don't have independence!
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    What you seem to be suggesting is that because white, middle-class men are often more represented in our society, as a white, middle-class man myself I am a racist for making any race-related jokes. Obviously this is absolutely ridiculous and if nothing else enormously patronising towards the very people you self-righteously claim to defend.
    Birken: stop being such a white, cishet, normative sh1tlord. Clearly you are the devil.

    I posted this image of a textbook from a Marxist course. It's everything she has been saying to you. Whites are the only race that can be racist. Men are the only sex that can be sexist. It's a Marxist power-struggle game, and it's not worth your time trying to combat her on this. She's past the point of no return.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...1&postcount=20
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    It's casual racism, you don't see it as racist.

    You're represented mostly positively in society- and the "independent black women" thing, is a weird portrayal of black women that isn't appropriate in this debate, it doesn't affect you because you're at an advantage. That's it.
    The joke is funny because the commonly used phrase is an ill-fitting description of himself. The joke is not a dig at black women, and one's failure to understand the innocent nature of the joke is not a validation of its supposed racial insensitivity. Moreover, I would go as far to say that to be offended by the joke would be unreasonable. It has nothing to do with his 'advantage,' but the simple fact he is not actually a strong, independent black woman.

    In other words: it wasn't racist; get over yourself.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    I don't see it as racist because it wasn't racist. You have yet to explain how it was as I have explained how your comments have not only been racist but sexist and socioeconomically snobbish as well.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that because white, middle-class men are often more represented in our society, as a white, middle-class man myself I am a racist for making any race-related jokes. Obviously this is absolutely ridiculous and if nothing else enormously patronising towards the very people you self-righteously claim to defend.

    I note for the fifth time that you have failed to respond to the bulk of my responses to you in our original discussion. You've even started to fail to properly respond to my individual points in this sub-discussion.
    I've explained, you're just refusing to see.
    Racism is disgusting and racial jokes can be deeply offensive, regardless. The problem with racial jokes is that it leaves way for people to hide behind "oh, but i'm not a racist- it was just a joke" even if the intention was offensive and it offended. Also, racist jokes carry weight.
    You appear to think that by being condescending you are somehow superior (in reference to the last two sentences). Your replies are too much.
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    (Original post by HigherMinion)
    Birken: stop being such a white, cishet, normative sh1tlord. Clearly you are the devil.

    I posted this image of a textbook from a Marxist course. It's everything she has been saying to you. Whites are the only race that can be racist. Men are the only sex that can be sexist. It's a Marxist power-struggle game, and it's not worth your time trying to combat her on this. She's past the point of no return.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...1&postcount=20
    Even though I'm not a Marxist, it seems a bit silly to instantly dismiss academic works just because they build on a certain school of thought.
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    I didn't realise you were in a position to dictate what a mature sense of humour is?

    I've posted on several of the same threads you have posted on. Enough for me to gather that you fall within those categories.

    Your joke may have affected many users who are black and female. You can't accept that.
    Did the joke genuinely offend you? Or is it that you simply dislike the audacity of a white male comically miscasting himself as a black woman?
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    (Original post by anonymouspie227)
    I've explained, you're just refusing to see.
    You have not explained how my joke was racist. Please direct me to the quotation or post where you believe you have.

    Racism is disgusting
    It is, which is why I have found some of your recent posts in this thread so unpleasant.

    and racial jokes can be deeply offensive, regardless.
    Agreed. I don't think that is the case here, which is why you are the only person to have found it at all offensive in a thread with over a hundred posts and scores of posters, some of whom are black females themselves, and why, despite it having been reported for offensiveness, the moderation team have not changed anything about it. You have twisted it beyond all recognition to be something malicious and offensive when it is plainly innocuous, and you have and continue to be entirely alone in doing so.

    The problem with racial jokes is that it leaves way for people to hide behind "oh, but i'm not a racist- it was just a joke" even if the intention was offensive and it offended. Also, racist jokes carry weight.
    'Oh, but I'm not a racist - it was just a joke' is a valid defence in many cases, not least when the joke in question is not racist itself. It is quite obvious that the intention was good and that, as I have said, you are the only person to have been offended by it. You seem to actively enjoy the feeling.

    I need not remind you that while I have carefully explained how you have been not only racist, sexist and socioeconomically snobbish here, you have failed to so far explain how the joke in question was at all racist.

    You appear to think that by being condescending you are somehow superior (in reference to the last two sentences). Your replies are too much.
    An unfair comment. All I said in my last two sentences is that you have consistently failed to respond to the large parts of the posts of mine you reply to. If a response is too much for you then you should have the courtesy to clarify that you aren't capable of mounting a decent response.
 
 
 
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