Ultra-Orthodox Jews repeatedly delaying flights by refusing to sit next to women Watch

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(Original post by The Independent)
A flight from New York to Tel Aviv was delayed by half an hour last week after a group of male ultra-Orthodox Jewish passengers refused to sit next to women, the third such incident in recent months.

The cabin crew on the Delta flight out of John F. Kennedy Airport tried to find seats for the men, but were met with refusal by other passengers, some of whom who took a dim view of the reasoning behind the request.

The incident took place on Delta flight 468 on 20 December, the Israeli publication The Times of Israel reports. An American passenger ultimately switched seats with the men.

This is the third widely reported incident in the last few months in which ultra-Orthodox Jewish men have delayed a flight by asking to be segregated from women.

On the eve of the Jewish festival Rosh Hashana in October, a flight, also between New York and Tel Aviv, was delayed by an hour after a group of Haredim refused to sit next to women. In this case, passengers ultimately left the plane before take-off.

A month earlier in September an El Al flight descended into an “11-hour long nightmare” after a group of Haredi Jewish passengers refused to sit next to women.

The ultra-Orthodox passengers, also travelling between New York and the Israeli capital, agreed to sit in their assigned seats for take-off but only after delaying the plane and offering money to switch seats with other passengers.

Many Haredi Jewish communities practice strict gender segregation and refrain from touching people of the opposite gender who are not close family members.

Haredi publications in Israel generally do not print pictures of women and girls. In 2009, the Israeli newspaper Yated Ne'eman famously doctored a photograph of the Israeli cabinet in order to replace two female ministers with images of men.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...=facebook-post

Thoughts on this? Is it unreasonable for these Jewish men to refuse to sit next to women, or are some of us becoming too intolerant of religious tradition?
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Illiberal Liberal
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Ludicrous. What if they declined to sit next to someone because they were black/white/disabled etc?

Society shouldn't have to make exceptions for unreasonable and discriminatory (and plain stupid) attitudes.
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Protégé
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(Original post by Law-Hopeful)
Ludicrous. What if they declined to sit next to someone because they were black/white/disabled etc?

Society shouldn't have to make exceptions for unreasonable and discriminatory (and plain stupid) attitudes.
I'm not sure but isn't it more likely to be about them not wanting to be close to women instead of being sexist? Probably an idea of not mingling with the opposite sex or something, though I may be wrong.
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You don't mess with the Haredim, ever:



You have to understand that ultra-orthodox Jews are called "ultra" orthodox for a reason: they literally follow the Torah, the Mishna, all 613 commandments and wait for the Messiah to come.

Many of them deny the state of Israel also.

They believe that breaching the halacha (jewish law) by them or other Jews (does not apply to goyim) delays the coming of the Messiah.
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(Original post by Protégé)
I'm not sure but isn't it more likely to be about them not wanting to be close to women instead of being sexist? Probably an idea of not mingling with the opposite sex or something, though I may be wrong.
There is no logical reasoning behind not wanting to sit next to someone because of their sex and doing so is thus unjustifiably discriminatory and should not be tolerated.
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Yowa
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(Original post by Law-Hopeful)
There is no logical reasoning behind not wanting to sit next to someone because of their sex and doing so is thus unjustifiably discriminatory and should not be tolerated.
There's the problem. It's custom not logic. By avoiding discrimination you are discriminating the traditions of a group over two thousand years old.
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(Original post by Yowa)
There's the problem. It's custom not logic. By avoiding discrimination you are discriminating the traditions of a group over two thousand years old.
There are many customs we no longer accept in modern society.

Equality takes precedence over mere 'custom' whenever there is a conflict between the two.
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(Original post by Law-Hopeful)
There are many customs we no longer accept in modern society.

Equality takes precedence over mere 'custom' whenever there is a conflict between the two.
There is no malice here, only differences in opinion; and since the group consists of such a large amount of people it would be unfair to discriminate against them.
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(Original post by Yowa)
There is no malice here, only differences in opinion; and since the group consists of such a large amount of people it would be unfair to discriminate against them.
I couldn't care less how many people hold a discriminatory opinion/view of others, and nor does/should Western society.

Discriminatory practices should expect to be 'discriminated against'.
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Lady Comstock
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Kick them off the plane and refuse any refunds.
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(Original post by Law-Hopeful)
I couldn't care less how many people hold a discriminatory opinion/view of others, and nor does/should Western society.

Discriminatory practices should expect to be 'discriminated against'.
It's not legal discrimination. It's a personal preference based on custom, not bigotry.
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(Original post by Reluire)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...=facebook-post

Thoughts on this? Is it unreasonable for these Jewish men to refuse to sit next to women, or are some of us becoming too intolerant of religious tradition?
When they can show me a quote out of the torah that says "thou shall not sit next to women on airplane flights", I'll understand their position. Until then, arrest them if they cause a disturbance.
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(Original post by jenkinsear)
When they can show me a quote out of the torah that says "thou shall not sit next to women on airplane flights", I'll understand their position. Until then, arrest them if they cause a disturbance.
Oh please. How does them pointing to a quote in a book justify their overtly discriminatory refusal to sit next to women?
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(Original post by Law-Hopeful)
Oh please. How does them pointing to a quote in a book justify their overtly discriminatory refusal to sit next to women?
It was a tongue in cheek comment. If they ever manage to present a quote as requested, I would then just laugh at them. Though I was understand their justification, even if I would believe it to be ridiculous.
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(Original post by Yowa)
It's not legal discrimination. It's a personal preference based on custom, not bigotry.
Now you're just talking rubbish.

Unjustifiable discrimination is exactly that; unjustifiable and discriminatory and will not be given any credence in the law and nor should it expect to be.
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miscounted_time
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As far as I am concerned they have two options

1. Sit down, shut up and enjoy the flight
2. Make other arrangements




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indigobluesss
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Man who cares, stupid views but so what

I think they're at fault, not because of their views but because of failure to sort out arrangements prior to getting on the flight.

I'm sure if they've raised this issue whilst booking it would've been happily sorted very quickly without causing delays to other people.

In hindsight, I'd be pretty pissed if that caused my flight to delay.
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(Original post by jenkinsear)
It was a tongue in cheek comment. If they ever manage to present a quote as requested, I would then just laugh at them. Though I was understand their justification, even if I would believe it to be ridiculous.
I see, my apologies.

My point is that such practices are unjustifiably discriminatory, so their reasoning is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.
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(Original post by Lady Comstock)
Kick them off the plane and refuse any refunds.
This.
Other people shouldn't have to bend over backwards to suit other people's religious beliefs. End of.
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Obiejess
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They are choosing, based on ridiculous beliefs, to give up their seats. They should have made other arrangements. It's like getting on a bus and refusing to sit next to a window. Come on, get a ****ing grip.

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