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Russell Group = Ivy League? What a joke. watch

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    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    Their arguements are very confusing to follow though. Are you ever offline shiny?
    Not until next Wednesday when my project is due in. Working on it 24/7 at the moment.
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    (Original post by shiny)
    Not until next Wednesday when my project is due in. Working on it 24/7 at the moment.
    Hmm. Good point. I should be revising. Meh.
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    *ducks too*
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    *waits for an LSE person to argue back*
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    And still... what is this HANDFUL of departments in LSE, which have world-wide recognition. I can name three or maybe four (being generous). In the same manner I can find about 20 universities in the UK with 3 or 4 world-recognised departments. Your point IS defeated through your own definitions.
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    (Original post by BossLady)
    Why then Sir J.S. did you even "dignify" a response eh?




    But it isn't the one and only important factor!!! I know you're ready to cast aside all other factors for fear having too many flaws in but niether is your single measurement flawless. As it is I would say LSE and generally social science schools would be favoured by this measurement, as would oxbridge obviously due to their vvvvvv oldness etc, maybe this measurement is also a measurement of worldwide prestige though rather than quality. Oxbridge obviously have the prestige, but how did LSE acquire this so fast in comparison to say Imperial, a science school, because LSE are producing people who you always hear about anyway, politicians and whatever. I mean, reallly....how interested is the average person in a western country in science, and yet how many people could name a bunch of politicians and their views, and now we see why more people might flock to LSE rather than Imperial. Do people care about the scientist, his ground-breaking research or who he is associated with? nah not really, (MIT however didnt suffer from this because it can lure people with money and so increase prestige that way ie now you have loads of famous academics there) but do people care what prime minister X is suggesting and his background? ie does he have a clue what he is babbling on about, they sure as heck do care!! So the measurement has it's holes too......
    All measurements do, that's why a combined set of measurements to choose the G-X group would be so much better.

    lol, so lets dignify this with a response.

    What you've tried to do is explain why the LSE is better known internationally than Imperial, your points are valid. I think you may well be right in saying that it has less to do with ‘quality’ (however you attempt to measure this, and obviously any comparison between mutually exclusive areas of interest is very difficult) and more to do with the subject area. However, I don't think your point really works too well to counter what I've been saying. For instance, you claim that the average person isn't as well aware of developments in the sciences as they would be in politics - is absolutely correct; however, I wasn't really talking about this, my point was regarding the number of top grade applicants applying. Surely you'd expect first rate applicants to be well aware of whatever field they're interested in, so this does not help explain why Imperial, on a relative level, is finding it more difficult attracting so many top class students at graduate level.

    To show how wonderfully objective I am I shall suggest that it's perhaps more to do with the scale of numbers. Simple point really: a far higher quantity of people are applying for the social sciences, the area just tends to be more popular; so there are quite simply a far greater number of first grade students to go around, and therefore they tend not to be as heavily concentrated within a handful of universities. This is why the LSE is able to attract such people, i.e. so many exist, that despite LSE competing for students with so many other universities, they can all attract a healthy proportion of people with genuine first rate academic potential in the field. I mean, take for example economics, LSE wouldn't really be anybody's first choice if they were willing to study in the U.S., (would perhaps be out of MIT, Chicago, Harvard, Stanford and Princeton) however as there are so many exceptional potential economists applying at graduate level, there are just enough to go around at each of the top faculties, including the LSE. Conversely, with the sciences/engineering, once MIT and Caltech have taken the very best, the quality of those remaining decreases at a relatively greater rate.


    Yannis, you're on the wrong track if you're trying to dispute that the 'G3' are the most selective at graduate level, it's clear-cut, as anybody with any knowledge of the graduate system will tell you. Go do your own research :P Look up Economics, Law (esp the PhD), International Relations (take a look at the applicants per place), and Accounting and Finance (take a look at GMAT requirements too) - and this is only what I can come up with off the top of my head.
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    (Original post by Yannis)
    And still... what is this HANDFUL of departments in LSE, which have world-wide recognition. I can name three or maybe four (being generous). In the same manner I can find about 20 universities in the UK with 3 or 4 world-recognised departments. Your point IS defeated through your own definitions.
    No, simply incorrect. That is NOT being generous, you cannot name comparable departments either, as they do not exist outside of the G3. I don't like arguing when I'm absolutely right and there's nothing to really discuss - all seems rather pointless.

    Economics - There's the MSc, of course. The doctoral prog. is amongst the most competitive for entry outside of the US. Simply no competition outside of Oxbridge, you cannot even be considered without a first.

    Law - Take a look at the LLM first. Once you've done this, then take a look at the PhD. Now, the PhD demands that the applicant has an exceptional first class honours in a minority of cases OR more realistically an average of 68% on the LLM with a distinction on the dissertation. I suggested that you take a glance at the LLM because, despite the exceptionally high level of competition, only a handful of students out of 100-150 manage to gain the level specified to move onto the doctorate - pretty damn difficult in other words. So, with even a first class degree, you have a slim chance of entry, unless you've aced the LLM. Only comparison is at Oxbridge.

    International Relations - One of the most difficult masters degrees for entry in Europe. Its ability to attract first class students is comparable to that of Economics, i.e. exceptional. Also, one of the most highly regarded doctoral degrees in IR in the world. You simply cannot suggest such high levels of selectivity exist elsewhere outside of what I call the G3.

    Accounting and Finance - I refer to the MSc, and particularly the PhD. Take a look at the number of people apply, and also the high scores required for the GMAT. I personally know of people on this course who've scored well over 700, this btw is a score with which an applicant could be very seriously considered a prospect for Harvard Business School. So, where are you going to find me its equivalent? I'll do the work for you, Cambridge's Judge Institute.

    Incidntally, this is just off the top of my head and is only giving examples of departments that I know of. Take a look at a few others, I am sure there are quite a few other examples, look out for the Development Institute, Government, Media and the Management Institute. Better still, ask WAS Hewins, he knows *everything* about the LSE.

    I think you're confusing undergraduate entry standards with those at graduate level, in which case your point would be valid, although the 20 uni's figure is an exaggeration. At undergraduate level, its Oxbridge then LSE/Imperial, then Bristol/Warwick/Edinburgh/Nottingham - or something along those lines.
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    If you'd like some statistics for graduate entry at the LSE, I've computed the following from the 2004 Graduate prospectus:

    These are calculated from the taught masters (Msc) alone. The percentages are derived from Student Intake/applications in 2002.

    Overall acceptance rate: 13.8%- Total Applications:20,113
    Total Intake: 2,782

    Most competitive courses in order:
    1. International Health Policy (3.8% Acceptance)
    2. Management and Regulation of Risk -and- Economics and Economic History (4% Acceptance)
    3. Finance and Economics, Global Market Economics, Public Financial Policy (6% Acceptance)
    4. International Relations (7%)
    5. Accounting and Finance (7.5%)
    6. Econometrics and Mathematical Economics -and- Decision Sciences(8%)
    7. Media and Communications -and- Human Rights(8%)
    8. Economics and Philosophy (9.5%)
    9. Global Media, Diploma in Accounting and Finance, MRes Political Science (10%)
    10. Law and Accounting -and- Statistics (11%)
    11. Economics -and- Development Studies (12%)
    12. Theory and History of International Relations (13%)
    13. Politics of the World Economy, Environment and Development, Development Management (14%)
    14. LLM; New Media, Information and Society; Diploma in Sociology; Public Policy and Administration; Real Estate Economics and Finance; Gender and Social Policy (15%)
    15. Operational Research -and- Political Science (17%)

    Some of these may have received low percentage rates because the courses admit so few students (e.g. Public Financial Policy course enrolled 7 students and there were 104 applicants.)

    I have also compiled a list of the courses with the most applications:

    1. LLM (1,555)
    2. Finance and Economics (1,482)
    3. International Relations (1,465)
    4. Accounting and Finance (1,338)
    5. Economics (1,335)
    6. Development Studies (785)
    7. Management (758)
    8. International Health Policy (705)
    9. Management and Regulation of Risk (606)
    10. Politics of the World Economy (596)

    Perhaps this helps to clarify the 'selectivity' of the LSE at the graduate level.

    And yes, I do have too much time on my hands.
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    (Original post by Chiaussieuk)
    Perhaps this helps to clarify the 'selectivity' of the LSE at the graduate level.

    And yes, I do have too much time on my hands.
    LOL!!!! I cannot believe you just did that!
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    lol, so lets dignify this with a response.

    What you've tried to do is explain why the LSE is better known internationally than Imperial, your points are valid. I think you may well be right in saying that it has less to do with ‘quality’ (h..etc etc
    You must now surely realise that analyzing a university on this one factor, rather than a combination is certainly ridiculous. . I doubt there will ever be any measurement which is not flawless.
    And this marks the end of your so called G3
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    (Original post by BossLady)
    You must now surely realise that analyzing a university on this one factor, rather than a combination is certainly ridiculous. . I doubt there will ever be any measurement which is not flawless.
    And this marks the end of your so called G3
    lol, nice try but making a set of claims without any persuasive backing up, and then expressing an argument whilst true, but entirely irrelevant, followed by you suggesting a set of alternatives without having thought them through does not lead to an end to my claim.

    Also, note I said it has less to do with quality, not that quality was not counted for in my measure

    SO
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    Oh so this has deviated from the original LSE/Imperial arguement slightly. I presume JS is comparing universities on the factors that he feels is most important to him.

    We on the other hand, don't agree. Well you can't really compare LSE and Imperial anyway... natural sciences/social sciences. They're very different, and the only shared dept is maths (which Imperial wins hands down).
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    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    Oh so this has deviated from the original LSE/Imperial arguement slightly. I presume JS is comparing universities on the factors that he feels is most important to him.
    Oh of course, I mean I am not claiming that I've found a unique all inclusive method through which to rank universities Such rankings are always bound to be subjective. It's just that I suspect most people do consider student selectivity as being such a good reflective measure of overall performance, esp. for the social sciences/arts. Goodness, now lets stop this!
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Oh of course, I mean I am not claiming that I've found a unique all inclusive method through which to rank universities Such rankings are always bound to be subjective. It's just that I suspect most people do consider student selectivity as being such a good reflective measure of overall performance, esp. for the social sciences/arts. Goodness, now lets stop this!
    No, please carry on. It makes for enjoyable reading even though I get confused
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    lol, nice try but making a set of claims without any persuasive backing up, and then expressing an argument whilst true, but entirely irrelevant, followed by you suggesting a set of alternatives without having thought them through does not lead to an end to my claim.

    Also, note I said it has less to do with quality, not that quality was not counted for in my measure

    SO
    Oh they're persuasive enough. You've just totally closed your mind off to anything against your wonderful measurement, which is only important to you and other aspiring academics. You know a range of measurements would be much better! Go on admit it!
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    (Original post by J.S.)
    Oh of course, I mean I am not claiming that I've found a unique all inclusive method through which to rank universities Such rankings are always bound to be subjective. It's just that I suspect most people do consider student selectivity as being such a good reflective measure of overall performance, esp. for the social sciences/arts. Goodness, now lets stop this!
    Im with shiny, do carry on.

    Edit: I agree with what you're generally saying bosslady, but unless the graduate employment numbers don't include the manager of macdonalds, I'll take them with a pinch of salt.
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    (Original post by Mysticmin)
    Im with shiny, do carry on.

    Edit: I agree with what you're generally saying bosslady, but unless the graduate employment numbers don't include the manager of macdonalds, I'll take them with a pinch of salt.
    Hmm, I wonder what they do actually include? I thought they were trying to refine these things to make them more accurate. PQ might know.....
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    (Original post by BossLady)
    Hmm, I wonder what they do actually include? I thought they were trying to refine these things to make them more accurate. PQ might know.....
    PQ give a list on one of the other threads. Apparently shopkeeper is a graduate job or something.
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    (Original post by Pencil Queen)
    There is a list and a link to the job titles in my post in the destinations post in the LSE subforum....have to go home now...
    Don't go home PQ! We miss your stats and wisdom.
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    (Original post by BossLady)
    Hmm, I wonder what they do actually include? I thought they were trying to refine these things to make them more accurate. PQ might know.....
    I hope they do refine them soon Then I could look at Imperial's figures and potentially dance with glee.
 
 
 
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