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    The West's love-affair with satire is rooted in Judaism. This is the great irony. The recent atrocities in France is an internal issue. The murderors or terrorists were actually born in France, and they were reasonably suited to the way of life, at least according to the accounts I have read.

    What concerns me is that France is a secular country with a dialogue which is relatively anti-religion and pro-atheism. There are, of course, Catholics and Jews in France, and the satirists who were murdered had been banned in the past for publishing very provocative images of a religious nature.

    With Islam, the prophet Mohammed is central to the Muslim identity. Attack the identity and you run into serious trouble. Imagine, that your neighbour was a Jew, an orthodox Jew, and you considered one day to join with a group of like-minded people and draw cartoons depicting orthodox Jews in a very poor taste - naked, holding money bags, devil's horns, etc - do you think your neighbour would get upset or not?

    The French satirist publication was read by thousands of people, and in that environment there is already the potent ingredients for cultural conflict. This is not about religion, because these Muslims killers were born in France, and many Muslims who have condemned these killers were also born in France. This is not about religion, but culture. Which culture?

    French culture. Not Islamic culture. France has assimilated itself with Islam, whether it likes that or not. The fact is that the recent atrocities was home-grown and was an internal issue facing France's relatioship with secularism, and its beliefs about freedom of speech.

    The French satirists believed that there should be no boundaries to freedom of speech; you can criticise anyone. This is wrong. You have no right to provocate hatred this way. Freedom of speech should be limited, it should not be unfettered.

    It is right, however, to condemn the actions of the killers, but the Muslims understand that there are limits to freedom of speech. And France knows this too! It's just that some fraternities in France are deliberately provocative. Let's be honest here and look at the problem in the face: the cartoons were anti-semitic.

    This is not a right wing or fascist issue. It is a cultural issue at the heart of Europe. Europe and America decided on a plan to grow a melting pot of cultures. To do that you need the fall guy, and Islam is that fall guy, because the West is dialogue with secularism and Islam is not. Now that Islam in France is a secular issue, it is causing a rift. This rift is not so big in, say, Saudi Arabia. For France the issue is internal, and to blame religion or Islam for these atrocities is simply an error.

    The satirists were deliberately provocative, were previously banned for publishing very sensitive images. One of them showed Mohammed bent over with testicles on show and a star covering his anus - even showing an orthodox Jew pushing Mohammed in a wheel chair - . There are limits to everything, and freedom of speech is no exception. But then we in the West are hypocrites. We condemn those that get angry over sensitive images, and yet we censure other kinds of expression.
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    I don't care who it offends, I will continue to support, draw and encourage drawings of Mohammad in sexual/satirical/insulting ways till the day I die. And this include satirical drawings of Jews, Christians, Jesus and any other religious figure you can think of.

    If someone is so central to your identity that just a drawing of them makes you kill people... your identity is worthless, stupid, dumb and should be mocked.

    It doesn't matter if the west is being hypocritical, in-fact it's completely immaterial and a pointless point to make. It adds nothing to the real discussion, that of Islams barbaric dangerous tenets and attitudes.
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    (Original post by SamKeene)
    I don't care who it offends, I will continue to support, draw and encourage drawings of Mohammad in sexual/satirical/insulting ways till the day I die.

    If someone is so central to your identity that just a drawing of them makes you kill people... your identity is worthless, stupid, dumb and should be mocked.
    It's not just a drawing though. The cartoons were designed to stir up anti-Muslim sentiment. The cartoonists no doubt knew what would happen, as they were previously bombed in 2011, I believe. Not only that, but their last publication was banned, so even the French government could not tolerate the nature of the publication. Don't you see that these satirists went too far? Yes. There is a limit and should be a limit on free speech, especially so in a melting pot of cultures. You cannot have stability in a country like France which believes that religion is fair game to be ridiculed. Criticism, by the way, is not the same as ridicule. Secularism has gone too far here. Criticise by all means, but when you start ridiculing then there is going to be trouble.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    You cannot have stability in a country like France which believes that religion is fair game to be ridiculed.
    then rather than trying to force it to change its culture through violence and terrorism it would be better if the religious chose somewhere more suitable to their beliefs.

    Attacks like this will only create more satire and ridicule and rightly so as it's taken a long time for us to get the freedoms we have and we're not going to roll over readily and just given them up because an immigrant who has chose to move to a country with these freedoms finds them offensive
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    then rather than trying to force it to change its culture through violence and terrorism it would be better if the religious chose somewhere more suitable to their beliefs.

    Attacks like this will only create more satire and ridicule and rightly so as it's taken a long time for us to get the freedoms we have and we're not going to roll over readily and just given them up because an immigrant who has chose to move to a country with these freedoms finds them offensive
    It is now a vicious circle, but it is also a self-fulfilling prophecy for France. You attack a religion, that religion finds it distasteful, you attack it some more, you start to hate that religion, that religion attacks you, and then something really bad happens. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You cannot incite religious hatred without consequences. You cannot bismirch an identity and expect not to face the consequences.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    It is now a vicious circle, but it is also a self-fulfilling prophecy for France. You attack a religion, that religion finds it distasteful, you attack it some more, you start to hate that religion, that religion attacks you, and then something really bad happens. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You cannot incite religious hatred without consequences. You cannot bismirch an identity and expect not to face the consequences.
    Sorry but you've missed the starting point

    Muslims attacked French Culture not the other way round

    Then the circle started

    and drawing a picture of MO is not inciting religious hatred I'm afraid so you're also wrong on that point.

    This is because the french refused to change their society to comply with an extremist version of Islam (you do know the restriction on drawing old mo is a recent innovation from around the 1920's) where as satirical cartoons have been part of France's culture for centuries.
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    Sorry but you've missed the starting point

    Muslims attacked French Culture not the other way round

    Then the circle started

    and drawing a picture of MO is not inciting religious hatred I'm afraid so you're also wrong on that point.

    This is because the french refused to change their society to comply with an extremist version of Islam (you do know the restriction on drawing old mo is a recent innovation from around the 1920's) where as satirical cartoons have been part of France's culture for centuries.
    Have you actually researched this? The publication began to attack Islam in 2011 and depicted Mohammed as a cartoon. The cartoonists were the original provocateurs.

    What extremist version of Islam? Not on French soil it wasn't. The Muslim council spoke out against the cartoons but condemned the actions of the Muslims who bombed the offices in 2011. Stop trying to blame some non-existent French Islamic extremism, when the source of the conflict rests on the shoulders of provocateurs.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    Have you actually researched this? The publication began to attack Islam in 2011 and depicted Mohammed as a cartoon. The cartoonists were the original provocateurs.
    Yes I have

    Sorry to say but you're supporting an extremist aspect of Islam recently introduced to muslims (as I said 1920's) over a countries century old history of ridiculing faith and power using things such as cartoons

    But do tell how is depicting Mo an attack on Islam?
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    The West's love-affair with satire is rooted in Judaism. This is the great irony. The recent atrocities in France is an internal issue. The murderors or terrorists were actually born in France, and they were reasonably suited to the way of life, at least according to the accounts I have read.

    What concerns me is that France is a secular country with a dialogue which is relatively anti-religion and pro-atheism. There are, of course, Catholics and Jews in France, and the satirists who were murdered had been banned in the past for publishing very provocative images of a religious nature.

    With Islam, the prophet Mohammed is central to the Muslim identity. Attack the identity and you run into serious trouble. Imagine, that your neighbour was a Jew, an orthodox Jew, and you considered one day to join with a group of like-minded people and draw cartoons depicting orthodox Jews in a very poor taste - naked, holding money bags, devil's horns, etc - do you think your neighbour would get upset or not?

    The French satirist publication was read by thousands of people, and in that environment there is already the potent ingredients for cultural conflict. This is not about religion, because these Muslims killers were born in France, and many Muslims who have condemned these killers were also born in France. This is not about religion, but culture. Which culture?

    French culture. Not Islamic culture. France has assimilated itself with Islam, whether it likes that or not. The fact is that the recent atrocities was home-grown and was an internal issue facing France's relatioship with secularism, and its beliefs about freedom of speech.

    The French satirists believed that there should be no boundaries to freedom of speech; you can criticise anyone. This is wrong. You have no right to provocate hatred this way. Freedom of speech should be limited, it should not be unfettered.

    It is right, however, to condemn the actions of the killers, but the Muslims understand that there are limits to freedom of speech. And France knows this too! It's just that some fraternities in France are deliberately provocative. Let's be honest here and look at the problem in the face: the cartoons were anti-semitic.

    This is not a right wing or fascist issue. It is a cultural issue at the heart of Europe. Europe and America decided on a plan to grow a melting pot of cultures. To do that you need the fall guy, and Islam is that fall guy, because the West is dialogue with secularism and Islam is not. Now that Islam in France is a secular issue, it is causing a rift. This rift is not so big in, say, Saudi Arabia. For France the issue is internal, and to blame religion or Islam for these atrocities is simply an error.

    The satirists were deliberately provocative, were previously banned for publishing very sensitive images. One of them showed Mohammed bent over with testicles on show and a star covering his anus - even showing an orthodox Jew pushing Mohammed in a wheel chair - . There are limits to everything, and freedom of speech is no exception. But then we in the West are hypocrites. We condemn those that get angry over sensitive images, and yet we censure other kinds of expression.
    Spot on!
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    They are definitely deliberately provocative, and I doubt that is what many people think of when they think of "freedom of speech"

    Having said that, you are free to look the other way, and the fact that people can not, surely underlines the idea that Western culture/society is not necessarily compatible with a culture of people who are stuck in the 7th Century?

    The bible has adapted, it is no longer taken literally, the Old Testament is every bit as much a violent and hate filled book as the Qu'ran is, but Christianity has moved forward through enlightenment, and no longer takes these things literally, although a very, very tiny minority do. (I refuse to have an argument about whether these books have passages of absolute hatred in them, they do, and to say otherwise is pure ignorance)

    Islam however has not been through this enlightenment, a lot more people believe in the literal word of the Qu'ran, effectively they are still stuck in the days of the Crusades, we have lightened up a bit.

    Effectively there is a much higher % of Islamic fundamentalists who believe in the literal word of the Qu'ran than there are Christian fundamentalists who believe in the literal word of the bible (specifically old testament)
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    Looking at this more and more, I don't like to say it but those guys had it coming. I don't agree for a second with what the gunmen did, bunch of complete mentalists. They should stand for their crimes and be punished accordingly.

    However, you can't be disrespectful and provoke any group of people. That is not free speech, that borders on hate speach and is certainly derogatory to that group of people.

    It doesn't matter what it is, religion, race, sex. If you seriously take the mick in a malicious way, which I think the cartoonists did, you can't expect to get away with it for long without the other side getting pissed off. Can you imagine this stuff standin up if it was about race or gender/sex? It just wouden't fly. Some people are more touchy than others, everyone knows how pissy certain Islamic groups get when you draw their prophet, so don't do it.

    Two of the guys had already recieved threats about it, you'd think he'd pack it in there as it only causes trouble.
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    (Original post by PopaPork)
    Yes I have

    Sorry to say but you're supporting an extremist aspect of Islam recently introduced to muslims (as I said 1920's) over a countries century old history of ridiculing faith and power using things such as cartoons

    But do tell how is depicting Mo an attack on Islam?
    That is a fallacious argument. The publication in question were disbanded after the 70s and were introduced in the 90s. They were not around in the 1920s. Of course, France has a history of satirism and ridiculing faiths, but that is not the issue. The issue is culture, French culture.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    Europe and America decided on a plan to grow a melting pot of cultures.
    I can't be bothered to wade through your sea of manure, but I did spot this particularly tickling turd.

    When did "Europe", by which I suppose you mean Europeans, decide this?
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    The issue is culture, French culture.
    So not a culture that thinks killing cartoonists:rolleyes:

    I had drafted a long reply but given this is your point it's not worth my time.
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    (Original post by BitWindy)
    I can't be bothered to wade through your sea of manure, but I did spot this particularly tickling turd.

    When did "Europe", by which I suppose you mean Europeans, decide this?
    We didn't but it seems if this is the global plan we should work with the Muslim countries to see how they are going to do this and perhaps take a few pointers from them.

    So I'm looking forward to the day I can sit and watch the faithfull in mecca with an ice cream and ice cold beer listening to some dirty grime
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    France is a secular country with a dialogue which is relatively anti-religion and pro-atheism.
    No, France is a Catholic country with a pretty strong Christian heritage but with a strictly secular government.

    (Original post by Martyn*)
    This is not a right wing or fascist issue.
    I would hope not, France leans strongly to the left.
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    Free speech is absolute but if you go round deliberately insulting and mocking peoples identity then you shouldn't be surprised when they get annoyed and bite back.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Free speech is absolute but if you go round deliberately insulting and mocking people's identity then you shouldn't be surprised when they get annoyed and bite back.
    With machine guns and kill bystanders too?

    So if you **** my wife off, and thereby bring disrespect on me and my family, I'll burn your house down in the middle of the night and kill your entire family. That OK too?
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    I'm a Christian and I see my religion mocked and ridiculed every day in the media and by people around me. My religious festivals have been hijacked and reduced to celebrating a fat man in red or people stuffing their faces with chocolate eggs. Every day I hear people taking my Lord's name in vain. And yet I am expected to tolerate all of this with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. But if all these things were done to islam, suddenly it becomes branded racism and islamophobia. You're either allowed to speak freely about all religions or none of them. What makes islam special?
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    .....
    Always had you down as more of an Operation Gladio kinda guy.
 
 
 
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