where do you suppose this 'right' of free speech came from? Watch

white boy
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#1
and why does no right of free action exist?

assuming your answer is 'because action has the potential to be more harmful than speech'

do you agree that good and bad are man made concepts?

if the above fact is accepted you can justify any action you want..
0
reply
hellodave5
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#2
Report 4 years ago
#2
If you could do whatever you want, how is society supposed to function?
Though I'm not sure to what extent you're meaning. To a great degree, we do have freedom of 'action'. In the West any laws that suppress freedom to do as you wish within reason is fought quite aggressively, usually.
Morality is a man made construct. Really, good and bad do not exist - but morality as an evolutionary construct developed in order to allow co-operation consequent survival.
0
reply
pjm600
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#3
Report 4 years ago
#3
(Original post by white boy)
and why does no right of free action exist?

assuming your answer is 'because action has the potential to be more harmful than speech'

do you agree that good and bad are man made concepts?

if the above fact is accepted you can justify any action you want..
I'd argue that the opposite angle should be taken. Why should speech be limited?
0
reply
white boy
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#4
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#4
(Original post by hellodave5)
If you could do whatever you want, how is society supposed to function?
Though I'm not sure to what extent you're meaning. To a great degree, we do have freedom of 'action'. In the West any laws that suppress freedom to do as you wish within reason is fought quite aggressively, usually.
Morality is a man made construct. Really, good and bad do not exist - but morality as an evolutionary construct developed in order to allow co-operation consequent survival.
this wasn't really meant to be a practical conversation. of course in the current world you pretty much have to abide by the morals and laws of your time.

but sometimes i feel as if people speak of rights which have come from 'nature' or that 'just exist', as if man didn't create all of them. and if man had created different ones the same people would happily live be them and defend them.
0
reply
white boy
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#5
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#5
(Original post by pjm600)
I'd argue that the opposite angle should be taken. Why should speech be limited?
oh that isn't my angle. i'm all for it, but what annoys me about free speech is that people tout it as if there can never be repercussions when they piss people off. if you poke a bear the bear is likely to maul you.

why can't free action be used as a defense for the 'bear'?
0
reply
hellodave5
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#6
Report 4 years ago
#6
(Original post by white boy)
this wasn't really meant to be a practical conversation. of course in the current world you pretty much have to abide by the morals and laws of your time.

but sometimes i feel as if people speak of rights which have come from 'nature' or that 'just exist', as if man didn't create all of them. and if man had created different ones the same people would happily live be them and defend them.
I feel you are getting at something interesting, but could you please clarify what you mean? Sorry, just a little unsure.

You refer to an inbuilt morality? We have an inbuilt sense for morality, which is an evolutionary adaptation. Has allowed us to work together effectively.
If we created different ones? In what way?
0
reply
white boy
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#7
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#7
(Original post by hellodave5)
I feel you are getting at something interesting, but could you please clarify what you mean? Sorry, just a little unsure.

You refer to an inbuilt morality? We have an inbuilt sense for morality, which is an evolutionary adaptation. Has allowed us to work together effectively.
If we created different ones? In what way?
it might help to know where this thread came from

obviously i've heard the news about this magazine shooting in Paris. and i've read a lot of comments online about it where people talk about free speech. first off i started thinking well yeah you can say what you want, but when you provoke people you're liable to get shot. now shooting is deemed unacceptable (SOMETIMES, see:war) by society, and it just has me thinking about the fact that society has created all of the dos and don'ts, and rejects anyone who doesn't play by them.

i don't believe in any in built morality i'm not sure when i hinted at that. i'm of the belief that morality is 100% acquired.


"if we created different ones"

maybe it makes more sense if i say, if someone from today who is currently living by and defending and believing all of the norms and beliefs of today, had been born 5000 years ago, that person would happily live by the norms of THAT day.

i don't really have a main point. just getting some thoughts out.

Spoiler:
Show
i'd be quite surprised if this makes sense. i think i'm making less sense with each post. isn't always easy to articulate these #deep thoughts
0
reply
hellodave5
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#8
Report 4 years ago
#8
(Original post by white boy)
it might help to know where this thread came from

obviously i've heard the news about this magazine shooting in Paris. and i've read a lot of comments online about it where people talk about free speech. first off i started thinking well yeah you can say what you want, but when you provoke people you're liable to get shot. now shooting is deemed unacceptable (SOMETIMES, see:war) by society, and it just has me thinking about the fact that society has created all of the dos and don'ts, and rejects anyone who doesn't play by them.

i don't believe in any in built morality i'm not sure when i hinted at that. i'm of the belief that morality is 100% acquired.


"if we created different ones"

maybe it makes more sense if i say, if someone from today who is currently living by and defending and believing all of the norms and beliefs of today, had been born 5000 years ago, that person would happily live by the norms of THAT day.

i don't really have a main point. just getting some thoughts out.

Spoiler:
Show
i'd be quite surprised if this makes sense. i think i'm making less sense with each post. isn't always easy to articulate these #deep thoughts
Thanks for elucidating.
There is probably a distinction between societal laws and what is deemed moral by the community. Though set down laws a lot of the time deem what is portrayed as moral some times (i.e. drugs laws), given the cultural framework. I made reference to drugs are it isn't really evidence based law, as far as I know.

Morally, the shooters are rightly condemned. But of course, morals are arbitrary: i.e. dictators morals - or those of war - the perpetrators often see themselves as the do-oers of good.

If you read into the science you will find that morality is inbuilt. Studies into the moral development in babies using puppets has displayed this quite well, as well as the homogeneity of morals through humankind as well as other complex social animals. Scientifically, really there is no doubt about this as far as I'm aware.

In this way, not all morals are socialised - but moral code is greatly determined by socialision within culture - what is deemed acceptable within the society which you are part of.

So if you were born 5000 years ago - you would still have the inbuilt morals of compassion, empathy etc., but they would also differ with regards to the society in which you exist, and what they deem acceptable.

EDIT: I suppose this links on to religion quite highly, as played significant part in the past. Religious laws have provided a strong framework (like the law of the land today) about what is deemed acceptable. But without these laws (in the absence of religion and law), you would still have morality.
0
reply
TorpidPhil
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#9
Report 4 years ago
#9
Yes. for some reaosn people don't seem to realise now-a-days that "rights" only exist insofar as a legislative system gives us them. When the woman says she has a right to vote in the misogynistic country where she is not allowed to vote what she's really saying is "It is wrong to deny any person like me the ability to vote" - that's a moral claim.

Rights are moral claims and pre-suppose a moral absolutist position.
0
reply
andersonsophie_8
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#10
Report 4 years ago
#10
Magna Carta -does not guareentee you freedom of speah but it talks abou civil rights in Britain. This gave way to the bill of rights in the USA and other human rights seen in other countries.

common Law is a very powerful law in the UK which is not really taught in schools and generally most people dont know they have it. They dont even know they are giving up their birth rights. Watch John Harris (dubbed freeman of Britian) to get a basic understanding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYJzXkcJgEU
0
reply
Unbearable
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#11
Report 4 years ago
#11
If you think about it, everyone has a freedom of speech and a freedom of action.

It is just that at some point it has been decided that some actions are wrong and therefore you will be locked away for it, however this is just the freedom of those locking you away choosing to do so.

Everyone is free to do anything but society means that doing so won't get you very far.

When people in other countries are thrown in jail for speaking out of term there is huge anger about it and it is seen as a disgrace that they aren't allowed their basic freedom of speech, however the law here dictates things you can and can't do such as vandalise etc. Imagine if it was the case of freedom of vandalisation and there was an uproar from other countries that we weren't allowed to vandalise wherever we want and we could even be fined for it!

Very interesting who decides what is allowed an not allowed, what is needed for society to work etc.

I am sounding like a "F*** the system" guy but I'm not, I fully appreciate that we need laws to live without everyone going crazy and living off survival instinct.
0
reply
username1649843
Badges: 6
Rep:
?
#12
Report 4 years ago
#12
Resistance to tyranny
0
reply
white boy
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#13
Report Thread starter 4 years ago
#13
(Original post by Unbearable)
If you think about it, everyone has a freedom of speech and a freedom of action.

It is just that at some point it has been decided that some actions are wrong and therefore you will be locked away for it, however this is just the freedom of those locking you away choosing to do so.

Everyone is free to do anything but society means that doing so won't get you very far.

When people in other countries are thrown in jail for speaking out of term there is huge anger about it and it is seen as a disgrace that they aren't allowed their basic freedom of speech, however the law here dictates things you can and can't do such as vandalise etc. Imagine if it was the case of freedom of vandalisation and there was an uproar from other countries that we weren't allowed to vandalise wherever we want and we could even be fined for it!

Very interesting who decides what is allowed an not allowed, what is needed for society to work etc.

I am sounding like a "F*** the system" guy but I'm not, I fully appreciate that we need laws to live without everyone going crazy and living off survival instinct.
i like this post
0
reply
william walker
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#14
Report 4 years ago
#14
Freedom of speech is created out of the Glorious Revolution and English Bill of Rights in Britain. It comes from the belief that everybody should be free to speak the word of God. It comes out of a political compromise between the Monarchy, High Tories and Whigs.
0
reply
Falcatas
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#15
Report 4 years ago
#15
Freedom of action can cause real harm.
Freedom of speech cannot.

You may be offended but this is no comparable harm to physical maiming.
0
reply
andersonsophie_8
Badges: 8
Rep:
?
#16
Report 4 years ago
#16
do you think or feel yor right tom say what you want is being restricted?
0
reply
Drunk Punx
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#17
Report 4 years ago
#17
(Original post by white boy)
and why does no right of free action exist?

assuming your answer is 'because action has the potential to be more harmful than speech'

do you agree that good and bad are man made concepts?

if the above fact is accepted you can justify any action you want..
As far as "rights" are concerned, skip to 4:20 (or just watch the whole thing, it's a good crack).


Comedy aside, he has a good point; rights are a man-made concept. So the morality of it is largely dependent on the moral compass of the person (or persons) who came up with the idea of implementing the right. That's the short and curlies of it.

As for your second point, good and bad are man-made concepts IMO. If nobody is harmed, it's good. The reverse is true for bad. You won't find that in the natural world.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to how our actions will affect others. If we're so superior to the "other animals" that inhabit this planet, then it would be a nice humbling lesson to humanity to remember that next time we start blowing **** up.
0
reply
TorpidPhil
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#18
Report 4 years ago
#18
(Original post by Drunk Punx)
As far as "rights" are concerned, skip to 4:20 (or just watch the whole thing, it's a good crack).


Comedy aside, he has a good point; rights are a man-made concept. So the morality of it is largely dependent on the moral compass of the person (or persons) who came up with the idea of implementing the right. That's the short and curlies of it.

As for your second point, good and bad are man-made concepts IMO. If nobody is harmed, it's good. The reverse is true for bad. You won't find that in the natural world.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to how our actions will affect others. If we're so superior to the "other animals" that inhabit this planet, then it would be a nice humbling lesson to humanity to remember that next time we start blowing **** up.
Are some concepts crafted by cows? Some by apes? Maybe some by your pet dog?

All concepts are man-made -_-

Atoms are a man-made concept, gravity is a man-made concept, maths is a man-made concept, it does not mean none of these are veridical.
0
reply
Drunk Punx
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#19
Report 4 years ago
#19
(Original post by TorpidPhil)
Are some concepts crafted by cows? Some by apes? Maybe some by your pet dog?

All concepts are man-made -_-
Thank you for that insightful reply.

Atoms are a man-made concept, gravity is a man-made concept, maths is a man-made concept, it does not mean none of these are veridical.
Atoms and gravity exist independently from us, they're not something we made up. They existed before us, they'll do so after we've gone. Also, you cannot claim that rights are inherently truthful when they vary from country to country. 2 is always 2, but two people in two separate countries having entirely different rights is enough of a base for me to say that rights cannot be true defined a priori.
0
reply
TorpidPhil
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#20
Report 4 years ago
#20
(Original post by Drunk Punx)
Thank you for that insightful reply.



Atoms and gravity exist independently from us, they're not something we made up. They existed before us, they'll do so after we've gone. Also, you cannot claim that rights are inherently truthful when they vary from country to country. 2 is always 2, but two people in two separate countries having entirely different rights is enough of a base for me to say that rights cannot be true defined a priori.
Moral rights and thereby obligations exist independently from us, they're not something we made up. They existed before us, they'll do so after we've gone. Also, you cannot claim that atoms are inherently truthful when beliefs about them vary from country to country. 2 is always 2, but two people in two separate countries having entirely different beliefs about meta-physics is enough for me to say that ontology cannot be truly defined a priori.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Where do you need more help?

Which Uni should I go to? (147)
18.51%
How successful will I become if I take my planned subjects? (78)
9.82%
How happy will I be if I take this career? (135)
17%
How do I achieve my dream Uni placement? (113)
14.23%
What should I study to achieve my dream career? (77)
9.7%
How can I be the best version of myself? (244)
30.73%

Watched Threads

View All