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A question to all feminists: watch

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    (Original post by 286001)
    I think the whole idea of feminism is distorted here. Men and women should be able to do or be whatever they want. There's no need to have social rules that basically decides who stays at home and who the breadwinner should be.

    Actually, being a man is a privilege too as so is being a woman. They both have their unique differences and special uses... Otherwise everyone would just be rather be one gender.

    Masculinity doesnt have to be going to the gym and looking hench, it has nothing to do with appearance (most of the time). Sometimes, it means men stand for what they believe in while protecting and looking after those around you by any means. That's my personal opinion anyway.


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    you keep talking like each ender gets to choose what the other finds attractive. They don't anymore. Or rather, a guy who chooses is sexist, a woman who chooses is liberated. Either no choice for either or choices for both, what will feminism allow?
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    (Original post by rosietherose)
    Interestingly, most of the stuff you have said here I, as a feminist, would refer to as "a feminist opinion" (because feminism is a choice and I assume you don't refer to yourself as one but it aligns with many feminist opinions).
    For me, feminism is making sure women's work (whether professional or family) and voice is as valued as a mans would be. I think institutionally, and individually sexism still exists. I don't want to be like "like a man" I want all women to have the value as one.
    That's a fair point since its true, women do get treated worse than men in some ways.

    But at the same time, the fact that we need to make an effort to be heard is hurtful and still slightly degrading, no?


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    (Original post by 286001)
    That's a fair point since its true, women do get treated worse than men in some ways.

    But at the same time, the fact that we need to make an effort to be heard is hurtful and still slightly degrading, no?


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    True, ideally this wouldn't need to happen. But I do think in some situations women aren't heard- therefore need, in this instance, feminism as platform.
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    (Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
    you keep talking like each ender gets to choose what the other finds attractive. They don't anymore. Or rather, a guy who chooses is sexist, a woman who chooses is liberated. Either no choice for either or choices for both, what will feminism allow?
    I didn't realize we were forced to choose what's attractive and what's not. I always thought that was a liberal thing, no?

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    (Original post by 286001)
    I didn't realize we were forced to choose what's attractive and what's not. I always thought that was a liberal thing, no?

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    in practice I don't think we are allowed. See my thread on the differences between calling out men's body in the media vs. calling out a woman's. It's a backlash of the reverse for years, I know, but surely there's a middle way where we all benefit?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    This is why feminism along with other social equality movements like black rights etc has gained such a strong foot hold in many aspects and groups of the western political establishments (there are still lots horrible conservatives that will moan about it though). It doesn't threatened the economic set up among other power set ups. Men, women, straight, gay, white, black, Asian, we can all race to the bottom together on equal footing.
    Indeed. All of these movements were in a sense demands for inclusion in the post-WW2 state-managed capitalism, which couldn't really afford to include them all. Now they can all be included - because there's not much left to be included in.

    You can see it very clearly in how they (they being the mainstream establishments) promote social rights leaders of old like Martin Luther King. He is treated as a hero for his role in black rights but the fact he was also a socialist of sorts is ignored. I america being a socialist basically makes you an enemy of the state by so many. Black rights is fine, socialism is not so we teach our children selectively of what he stood for. Focus on the race segregation, ignore the other things he stood for.
    Also worth noting that MLK's achievements owe a lot to more radical figures like Malcolm X, the Black Panthers, etc; if it wasn't for them, King would have been seen as the radical end of the spectrum, but instead he was able to present himself as the voice of moderation.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I doubt he'd reply. He knows it's perfectly illogical to think that way, but rather than rationalise things he'd scurry away and bury his head in the sand.
    I think it's pretty obvious he was talking about when society collapses, and probably by extension in those corners of our society which are most punishing. If you think women would be equal to men in those situations you're the one with your head in the sand.
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    (Original post by 286001)

    If I wanted to lead a prayer instead of a male imam doing so, I could.
    Wait what? Did you mean you could lead women only?
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    (Original post by rosietherose)
    Interestingly, most of the stuff you have said here I, as a feminist, would refer to as "a feminist opinion" (because feminism is a choice and I assume you don't refer to yourself as one but it aligns with many feminist opinions).
    For me, feminism is making sure women's work (whether professional or family) and voice is as valued as a mans would be. I think institutionally, and individually sexism still exists. I don't want to be like "like a man" I want all women to have the value as one.
    Well there's no reason why that shouldn't be the case in a knowledge and services economy, but we've only had one of those since the 1980s. Before that, most labour was denominated in physical strength and therefore women could not be equal to men. As the share of knowledge and services rose since the war at the expense of manufacturing, so did feminism and the position of women.

    And when did we first get equal pay throughout a woman's career? 1990. By the end of the transition whereby women's work would not be inferior to men's, the market had already corrected for it.

    Since then women have very quickly achieved equality, and are today favoured over men, sometimes explicitly, in the following areas of civil society:
    - criminal law
    - family law
    - social security
    - education
    if not more, and over-represented in many high-paying and fulfilling fields.

    I'm sure there still is some institutional sexism and sexism in general society, but you can't have everything, you have to have a bit of patience. Like when people complain about no women in the boardrooms, they realise most of the men who ARE in the boardrooms started work long before the Equal Pay Act was even a twinkle in Barbara Castle's eye. You have to wait for them to die to get a shot at power just the same as the rest of us do.

    Look at the gays, they were never that militant, it took about 40 years between decriminalisation and gay marriage which isn't bad considering they didn't really bother arguing for it. If attitudes are changed the hard work has been done, down the line inertia will do the rest and you get to spend your time getting hopped up on pills, listening to some sweet 90s pop and shagging everyone you meet rather than ruining your psyche getting angry about everything.

    As for family work, what exactly do you mean? Family work is more like owning a subsistence farm. Do you want to be paid for your family work or something? Because surely the profit is the children themselves. It's a closed economy.
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    (Original post by 286001)
    Since when has it been okay to make men the standard by which women live? Why do you want to be just like your male colleague in nearly every way? What's wrong with being a woman?

    Surely we should be celebrating our differences in gender, not our sameness! Why do you want to live in a world where you can be seen as masculine, that you're able to lift just like a man, not a girl? It doesn't make sense to me.

    Now I understand that as a woman living in a western world, the concept of feminism doesn't apply to me as much as it does for women in developing countries. Indeed, they are in need of basic human rights, what with FGM etc... not equality to men. Somehow, the west have put men all over the world in the state of mind that they are more superior than us in every way, that they are the models of which women strive to live by and be like... Why have they allowed this to happen? Who put them up on the podium?

    As a Muslim woman, and as paradise in the hereafter being my goal in life, I am proud to say that one day I can't wait to be a mother, a privilege men don't get. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said: 'Paradise lies under your mother's feet'. Would I rather abandon my children so I can prove to society that I have the same worth as a man, or would I choose paradise?

    Allah (SWT) is the standard by which I live, and so do many other Muslim women and men. We live to please Him. Nothing else matters in this life. Both men and women are created equally by Him. If I wanted to lead a prayer instead of a male imam doing so, I could. The imam gets no more reward than whoever prays behind him. Islam teaches that life isn't about wealth and power, the two things which western women seem to want the most. There is no divide in Islam, we call each other brother and sister and never turn against one another to get power or wealth.

    P.S: In no way am I man-hating here.
    Just wanted to ask a Muslim girl this - if your religion created men and women to be equal, then why do countries governed by Islamic law such as Saudi Arabia not allow women to drive, leave the house without a male relative, vote in elections* and not being allowed to show any of their body except hands and their eyes? Do you not feel that this is oppressive and contradicts teachings of equality and peace?

    *I think they are allowed to now, but the law has only just been passed.
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    (Original post by 286001)
    Somehow, the west have put men all over the world in the state of mind that they are more superior than us in every way, that they are the models of which women strive to live by and be like... Why have they allowed this to happen? Who put them up on the podium?
    Lolno. The West had nothing to do with how oppressive Islam has been since its' inception, for example. Don't blame "the West" for the problems that certain medieval aspects of your religion are imposing on modern day society.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    Lolno. The West had nothing to do with how oppressive Islam has been since its' inception, for example. Don't blame "the West" for the problems that certain medieval aspects of your religion are imposing on modern day society.
    The West was just as bad before we discovered colonisation, then we outsourced our oppression to the colonies. Bring wealth in and it will paper over any cracks. You would be mad to say the West hasn't had a hand in the decline and fall of the Ottoman Empire, they carved up the Middle East and tried to impose arbitrary nationhood on various bits of it. Fair play, colonists gonna colonise, but you can see how it was seen as an act of war between Christians and Muslims. (Look how things got when we did the same thing in our own back yard with the Irish, and that was supposed to be an religious conflict shaken out way back in the 16-1700s.) And then we fought our proxy wars with Russia in the Middle East and ****ed things up even more, and here we are more or less.

    Also you have to remember Islam is still in about 1400, if not earlier depending on what you consider to be the zenith of Muslim and Christian empire-building. If anything they're more civilised than Christians were at the equivalent time. Not surprising really considering there are other nations to push them along, but still, the conclusion is surely that there's no real difference and people are broadly the same everywhere.

    The strain of Islam we don't like are Wahhabis who are like the Puritans. Basically what is happening over there is a bit like the English Civil War which definitely had the same levels of barbarism. It's not that Islam is a bad religion, it's that people at various stages of history are likely to interpret their religion, or other guiding principles of their country, in ways that arise from their socio-economic situation and, while solving immediate problems, create new ones.
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    (Original post by bertstare)
    On average it does though.
    Tell me what does an average mean? And also give me examples of such averages.


    Let's talk statistics Don't shy away, back up what you say. Or you'll automatically be taken as a fool.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I think it's pretty obvious he was talking about when society collapses, and probably by extension in those corners of our society which are most punishing. If you think women would be equal to men in those situations you're the one with your head in the sand.

    You make absolutely no sense. Well done.
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    (Original post by 286001)
    Since when has it been okay to make men the standard by which women live? Why do you want to be just like your male colleague in nearly every way? What's wrong with being a woman?

    Surely we should be celebrating our differences in gender, not our sameness! Why do you want to live in a world where you can be seen as masculine, that you're able to lift just like a man, not a girl? It doesn't make sense to me.

    Now I understand that as a woman living in a western world, the concept of feminism doesn't apply to me as much as it does for women in developing countries. Indeed, they are in need of basic human rights, what with FGM etc... not equality to men. Somehow, the west have put men all over the world in the state of mind that they are more superior than us in every way, that they are the models of which women strive to live by and be like... Why have they allowed this to happen? Who put them up on the podium?

    As a Muslim woman, and as paradise in the hereafter being my goal in life, I am proud to say that one day I can't wait to be a mother, a privilege men don't get. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said: 'Paradise lies under your mother's feet'. Would I rather abandon my children so I can prove to society that I have the same worth as a man, or would I choose paradise?

    Allah (SWT) is the standard by which I live, and so do many other Muslim women and men. We live to please Him. Nothing else matters in this life. Both men and women are created equally by Him. If I wanted to lead a prayer instead of a male imam doing so, I could. The imam gets no more reward than whoever prays behind him. Islam teaches that life isn't about wealth and power, the two things which western women seem to want the most. There is no divide in Islam, we call each other brother and sister and never turn against one another to get power or wealth.

    P.S: In no way am I man-hating here.
    I like your premise but i'd have stuck with the first half personally.

    Feminism is about being EQUAL to men not being the same as men.
    It's about being able to choose if you want to be a 24 hour work-a-holic or a housewife or anything in between. It's about being a nurse or a midwife but also having the opportunity to be a doctor. Being a ballet dancer but also being allowed to play football or study engineering. You can choose to stick to traditional gender roles and no one should judge you for that if that's what you want to do. But if someone else chooses not to have children and to pursue their career above all else that doesn't make them any less a woman, they aren't masculine they've just made a different choice to be a different type of woman.
    I also think it's very unfair, generalizing and utterly untrue that all western women want wealth and power above all else. In fact i'd say it borders on racism tbh.
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    (Original post by caitb97)
    Just wanted to ask a Muslim girl this - if your religion created men and women to be equal, then why do countries governed by Islamic law such as Saudi Arabia not allow women to drive, leave the house without a male relative, vote in elections* and not being allowed to show any of their body except hands and their eyes? Do you not feel that this is oppressive and contradicts teachings of equality and peace?

    *I think they are allowed to now, but the law has only just been passed.
    That's a cultural thing, the women aren't allowed to drive bit. Everywhere else in the world Muslim women are permitted to drive freely, leave the house etc. They only a man to accompany them when they're traveling to a different country.

    And with the covering of the eyes and hands, that's actually a choice of the women believe it or not. Its not obligatory, although its been made so in Saudi Arabia etc. If that law was lifted you.would find many without the veil by choice.

    Again, you'll even find British Muslim women to be wearing covering everything apart from their eyes and hands because they choose to, no oppression there I'm afraid.

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    Feminism doesn't just exist so that men and women realise they are equal in status, so that they choose whatever they want to do with their lives. It also exists to tackle the abuse that some women suffer from male supremacists all around the world. Some women are treated like household objects and are made to think they are far more inferior than men. This sort of treatment of women throughout history has given rise to feminism. Do realise there are different types of feminism, some types that I will disagree with and some that I have no problems with.
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    (Original post by 286001)
    Since when has it been okay to make men the standard by which women live? Why do you want to be just like your male colleague in nearly every way? What's wrong with being a woman?

    Surely we should be celebrating our differences in gender, not our sameness! Why do you want to live in a world where you can be seen as masculine, that you're able to lift just like a man, not a girl? It doesn't make sense to me.

    Now I understand that as a woman living in a western world, the concept of feminism doesn't apply to me as much as it does for women in developing countries. Indeed, they are in need of basic human rights, what with FGM etc... not equality to men. Somehow, the west have put men all over the world in the state of mind that they are more superior than us in every way, that they are the models of which women strive to live by and be like... Why have they allowed this to happen? Who put them up on the podium?

    As a Muslim woman, and as paradise in the hereafter being my goal in life, I am proud to say that one day I can't wait to be a mother, a privilege men don't get. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) said: 'Paradise lies under your mother's feet'. Would I rather abandon my children so I can prove to society that I have the same worth as a man, or would I choose paradise?

    Allah (SWT) is the standard by which I live, and so do many other Muslim women and men. We live to please Him. Nothing else matters in this life. Both men and women are created equally by Him. If I wanted to lead a prayer instead of a male imam doing so, I could. The imam gets no more reward than whoever prays behind him. Islam teaches that life isn't about wealth and power, the two things which western women seem to want the most. There is no divide in Islam, we call each other brother and sister and never turn against one another to get power or wealth.

    P.S: In no way am I man-hating here.

    I like the part where you pretty much mention that if men do something women don't have to do it just to prove themselves.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    You make absolutely no sense. Well done.
    Hmm, can you not conceive of what it would be like if society collapsed?
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    Lolno. The West had nothing to do with how oppressive Islam has been since its' inception, for example. Don't blame "the West" for the problems that certain medieval aspects of your religion are imposing on modern day society.
    Thing is, in actual medieval times, the Islamic world was the centre of knowledge, science and advancement while feudal Europe was a backwater. If it hadn't been for the Byzantine Empire being in the way, the Caliphate could well have conquered much of Europe.
 
 
 
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