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Do you believe fascism is of the far right? Watch

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    I don't. I'm fed up of people associating far right politics with fascism when it simply isn't true and never even started out that way. It is an authoritarian ideology with a mixture of extremist policies across the spectrum in my opinion.

    What is your viewpoint on it?
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    (Original post by Messiah Complex)
    I don't. I'm fed up of people associating far right politics with fascism when it simply isn't true and never even started out that way. It is an authoritarian ideology with a mixture of extremist policies across the spectrum in my opinion.

    What is your viewpoint on it?
    Someone posted this graphic on the subject to clear things up. It's biased, but it might help others see the distinction between left and right. The right-wing policies are the social constraints, the fact that the state cares about it's people and won't try to replace us with mass immigration, etc. while the left-wing element is mild socialism.

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    It's a difficult one, as it takes elements from both the left and right. Also it is generally neutral towards capitalism which I think will push it to the right. Each country that practised fascism also put a different spin on it, as well as the respective movements. British fascism, French and Italian all emphasis different things, their almost different ideologies. I doubt many people have a particularly good understanding of fascism other than omg nazis, so it's a difficult one to actually debate.



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    Fascism usually makes a major point of racial identity which is collective.

    So fascism is technically left wing.
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    (Original post by Messiah Complex)
    I don't. I'm fed up of people associating far right politics with fascism when it simply isn't true and never even started out that way. It is an authoritarian ideology with a mixture of extremist policies across the spectrum in my opinion.

    What is your viewpoint on it?
    Split ideology into three categories:

    1) Economic Ideology [Capitalism and Socialism]
    2) Political Ideology [Democracy and Dictatorship]
    3) Social Ideology [Egalitarian and Sectarian]

    To be deemed fascist, I believe your social ideology must be in some way sectarian. For example, the tories operate on behalf of the rich/elites, saudis for sunni's, britain for english, usa for european americans, India for Hindus etc. If your policies are based around this ideology you can be deemed fascist.

    Your political ideology is normally closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. This fits the description of all governments in the world. None are truly democratic. The favoured social group normally has access to privileges that the unfavoured social group/s do not. For example, a rich person can murder someone and be freed quite easily. A poor person will be put away for life. Or, a german nazi party member can kill a Jewish person and be exonerated whereas a Jew would be put to death or thrown in jail for their whole life. The unfavoured social groups aren't represented in the government, cannot exercise their rights or have little/no rights etc etc...

    The economic ideology doesn't matter that much on it's own. Normally the economy is run in a way to benefit the specific people that their social ideology encompasses so again tories for the rich, nazi's for aryans, saudi's for sunni etc etc...It doesn't matter if they are socialist or capitalist.

    An extremist policy for one person might be a revolutionary policy for another person lol

    Fascism is a right wing ideology because to be right wing is to be an advocate social inequality. If you think it is normal or right that a certain group of peoples are discriminated in some way or they are a lower social status than your social group then you are right wing and basically fascist.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    Split ideology into three categories:

    1) Economic Ideology [Capitalism and Socialism]
    2) Political Ideology [Democracy and Dictatorship]
    3) Social Ideology [Egalitarian and Sectarian]

    To be deemed fascist, I believe your social ideology must be in some way sectarian. For example, the tories operate on behalf of the rich/elites, saudis for sunni's, britain for english, usa for european americans, India for Hindus etc. If your policies are based around this ideology you can be deemed fascist.

    Your political ideology is normally closer to a dictatorship than a democracy. This fits the description of all governments in the world. None are truly democratic. The favoured social group normally has access to privileges that the unfavoured social group/s do not. For example, a rich person can murder someone and be freed quite easily. A poor person will be put away for life. Or, a german nazi party member can kill a Jewish person and be exonerated whereas a Jew would be put to death or thrown in jail for their whole life. The unfavoured social groups aren't represented in the government, cannot exercise their rights or have little/no rights etc etc...

    The economic ideology doesn't matter that much on it's own. Normally the economy is run in a way to benefit the specific people that their social ideology encompasses so again tories for the rich, nazi's for aryans, saudi's for sunni etc etc...It doesn't matter if they are socialist or capitalist.

    An extremist policy for one person might be a revolutionary policy for another person lol

    Fascism is a right wing ideology because to be right wing is to be an advocate social inequality. If you think it is normal or right that a certain group of peoples are discriminated in some way or they are a lower social status than your social group then you are right wing and basically fascist.
    I thought the difference between the right wing and the left wing was that the right wing advocates limited government and the left wing advocates larger government? "right" and "left" politically looks at economics, because the political spectrum has government involvement(s) going left and north, but we're not talking about north and south (authoritarianism and libertarianism) here, we're talking about right and left, and equality before the law is present both on the extreme right and the extreme left, so we cant really say it's defined by equality simply because the extreme left adds another kind of "equality" which is just an outcome of policy/power/intervention which is its defining component - if the extreme right was about inequality, it wouldn't be bout being "far right" but rather "far north" in that sense because right wing economics isn't saying anything about formal equality before the law, but if it is about individuals, then it is about individual (legal) equality. I should also add that equality is a government creation, so you need power before you can get equality in this sense...but in my opinion, far left politics seems to divide people more than "far right" politics, seeing as it treats people differently based on their wealth or class, and policies are tailored to certain people, e.g. if you have more money, you get taxed more, while in "far right" economics, everybody's taxed the same (etc)
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    Anything which favours hierarchy and structure is right wing so yes it is, even though in practice it is in many ways extreme centrism.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    I doubt many people have a particularly good understanding of fascism other than omg nazis, so it's a difficult one to actually debate.
    This. My point is I keep hearing people call the BNP far right fascists when in fact they're centre-right authoritarians. A lot of the BNP's policies are left wing policies, even more left wing than Labour of current. They have both extremist views of the right and left which pulls them towards the centre but obviously due to their stance on things such as the economy, law and order, schooling and immigration they are of the right of that centre. However it is wrong to call them a party of the far right yet this myth is banded about continuously.

    They are definitely a horrible party with horrible views but thats not because they're far right wing. When you associate the likes of the BNP with far right politics you get people getting a distorted viewpoint of what far right politics actually stands for. I'd say both the Tories and UKIP overall are more right wing than the BNP but less extreme in those overall views.
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    I thought the difference between the right wing and the left wing was that the right wing advocates limited government and the left wing advocates larger government? "right" and "left" politically looks at economics, because the political spectrum has government involvement(s) going left and north, but we're not talking about north and south (authoritarianism and libertarianism) here, we're talking about right and left, and equality before the law is present both on the extreme right and the extreme left, so we cant really say it's defined by equality simply because the extreme left adds another kind of "equality" which is just an outcome of policy/power/intervention which is its defining component - if the extreme right was about inequality, it wouldn't be bout being "far right" but rather "far north" in that sense because right wing economics isn't saying anything about formal equality before the law, but if it is about individuals, then it is about individual (legal) equality. I should also add that equality is a government creation, so you need power before you can get equality in this sense...but in my opinion, far left politics seems to divide people more than "far right" politics, seeing as it treats people differently based on their wealth or class, and policies are tailored to certain people, e.g. if you have more money, you get taxed more, while in "far right" economics, everybody's taxed the same (etc)
    No. It's all about how society is arranged. Right wingers think it is normal, natural or right to have inequality and therefore operate within this paradigm. Left wingers think there shouldn't be inequality and operate within that paradigm.

    The size or reach of government doesn't really matter. What matters is the political ideology. You can have big government which is either democratic or authoritarian. You can have a small government which is either democratic or authoritarian. If your government is authoritarian, it is authoritarian. Any dissent is punished, government policy must be followed etc etc.

    I think a big democratically run government is the best scenario although this has never existed in history.

    At the end of the day, equality is the end goal. Without equality people who are persecuted due to inequality, whether it is economic, political or social inequality, will not be happy. Those who witness inequality being inflicted on their fellow human will not be happy. The tax rate is an effort to equalize the system but it is a feeble attempt and in fact it actually causes those who are taxed more to think they earned that money legitimately lol.

    Lefties want equality across the board. Righties do not. Righties strive for more inequality which will inevitably lead to uprisings.

    If you want right wingers to rule the world make sure you are rich, white, male and heterosexual otherwise you'll be oppressed.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    No. It's all about how society is arranged. Right wingers think it is normal, natural or right to have inequality and therefore operate within this paradigm. Left wingers think there shouldn't be inequality and operate within that paradigm.

    The size or reach of government doesn't really matter. What matters is the political ideology. You can have big government which is either democratic or authoritarian. You can have a small government which is either democratic or authoritarian. If your government is authoritarian, it is authoritarian. Any dissent is punished, government policy must be followed etc etc.

    I think a big democratically run government is the best scenario although this has never existed in history.

    At the end of the day, equality is the end goal. Without equality people who are persecuted due to inequality, whether it is economic, political or social inequality, will not be happy. Those who witness inequality being inflicted on their fellow human will not be happy. The tax rate is an effort to equalize the system but it is a feeble attempt and in fact it actually causes those who are taxed more to think they earned that money legitimately lol.

    Lefties want equality across the board. Righties do not. Righties strive for more inequality which will inevitably lead to uprisings.

    If you want right wingers to rule the world make sure you are rich, white, male and heterosexual otherwise you'll be oppressed.
    but societies are *arranged* by states, and states are uniquely bodies with monopolies on the use of legitimate force. and seeing as we're talkin about "left and right", the context of statism means that those on the right want less government (for purposes of economics) and those on the left want more government (for the purposes of economics)
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    Fascism is economically somewhere in the middle, but its defining quality is extreme authoritarianism. It is almost the opposite of classical liberalism. (Maoist communism is the true opposite).
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    but societies are *arranged* by states, and states are uniquely bodies with monopolies on the use of legitimate force. and seeing as we're talkin about "left and right", the context of statism means that those on the right want less government (for purposes of economics) and those on the left want more government (for the purposes of economics)
    There are three entities that can have control of society and hence the world: Governments, Private Businesses or Individuals. Individuals never have control of society. It passes between governments and businesses. Small government means big private businesses and vice versa.

    Governments are supposed to be controlled by the individual so if these was the current situation I would like more government. More nationalization, more central planning. Not less so the private capitalists can do what they want with impunity.

    The real issue is how do people get control of government. The left is the only ideology that will pursue such a goal. The right are hypocrites. They say small government is good because it will make people free when in reality the control goes to those who control resources and production aka corporations.

    Big government + democracy = a better world.

    Right now we have Big government in certain areas (Small in the main areas i.e. the economy) + dictatorship = a ****ty world

    Right wing fascist ideology is the dominant ideology in the world. That's why you see so much sectarianism.
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    What I like about these analyses of political doctrines is how quickly the "left/right" concept falls to bits. It is an over-simplified nonsense.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Fascism is economically somewhere in the middle, but its defining quality is extreme authoritarianism. It is almost the opposite of classical liberalism. (Maoist communism is the true opposite).
    I would describe the difference between fascism and the Leninist inspired communist regimes as being this.

    Fascist believe in a strict hierarchical order in society, both social and economic. An authoritarian government is required to hold it all in place. They will allow some form of capitalism to take place, but they are not right wing libertarians by any stretch of the imagination.

    A lot of communists believed a strong authoritarian government is required to create a "free" society with no hierarchy (makes it left wing). This freedom was the the freedom from economic exploitation (how they see capitalism) via the state running everything in a dogmatic way, this was somehow supposed to lead to communism when the state will then shrink away. Of course this never happened. But it was sued as justification for the propping up of a society that had insane levels of hierarchy, some probably believed in the communist dream whilst others just used it as a way to manipulate and control. When you compare the reality of Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia no one had much freedom. They were very similar. The authoritarian/libertarian part of the axis is incredibly important.

    Probably somewhat simplistic but that is how I see it.
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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Anything which favours hierarchy and structure is right wing so yes it is, even though in practice it is in many ways extreme centrism.
    Surely though on the far left you have Socialism, which advocates complete state control. You don't tend to get more structured than that.

    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Fascism is economically somewhere in the middle, but its defining quality is extreme authoritarianism. It is almost the opposite of classical liberalism. (Maoist communism is the true opposite).

    I like the idea of it being the opposite of classical liberalism. Especially since fascism advocates group rights, whilst liberalism is all about individual rights.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Surely though on the far left you have Socialism, which advocates complete state control. You don't tend to get more structured than that.
    Anarchism is traditionally far left. You don't get further from "complete state control " than anarchy.

    This is the problem. The cold war had two super powers telling everyone that socialism is this monstrous draconian state for their own propaganda reasons. It 's hard to brake free from the two biggest propaganda machines when they agree with each other.
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    (Original post by saayagain)
    There are three entities that can have control of society and hence the world: Governments, Private Businesses or Individuals. Individuals never have control of society. It passes between governments and businesses. Small government means big private businesses and vice versa.

    Governments are supposed to be controlled by the individual so if these was the current situation I would like more government. More nationalization, more central planning. Not less so the private capitalists can do what they want with impunity.

    The real issue is how do people get control of government. The left is the only ideology that will pursue such a goal. The right are hypocrites. They say small government is good because it will make people free when in reality the control goes to those who control resources and production aka corporations.

    Big government + democracy = a better world.

    Right now we have Big government in certain areas (Small in the main areas i.e. the economy) + dictatorship = a ****ty world

    Right wing fascist ideology is the dominant ideology in the world. That's why you see so much sectarianism.
    Your faith in big government is disturbing although very common.

    Big government does not protect us from big companies, quite the opposite actually. Big government favours the biggest corporations by erecting barriers to entry for competitors through over-regulation and also because politicians love redirecting public funds to those who funded their political campaigns.

    We do have extensive government intervention in the economy. Maybe its not exactly the kind of intervention that you favour, but it surely exists.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Anarchism if traditionally far left.
    Always considered Socialism to be pretty far left itself, with anarchism being further along. Although I'm viewing this through a British current day prism, which might be why.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Always considered Socialism to be pretty far left itself, with anarchism being further along. Although I'm viewing this through a British current day prism, which might be why.
    An anarchist should be a socialist. But a socialist doesn't have to be an anarchist. I would describe it as a branch of socialism.
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    (Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
    Your faith in big government is disturbing although very common.

    Big government does not protect us from big companies, quite the opposite actually. Big government favours the biggest corporations by erecting barriers to entry for competitors through over-regulation and also because politicians love redirecting public funds to those who funded their political campaigns.

    We do have extensive government intervention in the economy. Maybe its not exactly the kind of intervention that you favour, but it surely exists.
    You didn't read all my posts then. Big government is ok if the people truly control the government.

    Big government can protect us from big companies however in its current set up it is geared towards supporting big companies. This is because the ideology of the government is free market capitalism. They have relinquished the control of the economy to private entities and take advice from these entities on how to better their economy by suggesting regulation or spouting economic theory.

    If the government was a socialist government...I mean a proper socialist government, these private entities would be heavily regulated or nationalized.
 
 
 
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