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LGBT school could open in Manchester
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Original post by al_94
I think it's a good idea if they want to embrace homosexuality that's fine but if I had kids I wouldn't want them to learn about this stuff so this would be better than forcing it upon others.
As a gay youth, it is honestly not something that can change your sexuality, and if you had a child, who happened to be gay, but was never taught about what they are, they end up really confused and pretty messed up. I know this from personal experience and those of my friends.
I think the idea isn't great. I think it is a good think that there is an effort being made to protect people but protection via exclusion is just as damaging as being bullied. I live in an area widely considered to be racist/homophobic and I don't really get much issue, but it's to an exent who you are, when etc. People teaching their children not to be ****ty children and adults of the nation not being bigoted is what we need. Not schools for lgbt people.
Original post by cole-slaw
As I think centuries of history has shown, segregating people is an extremely effective means of encouraging bigotry and hatred.
Indeed... the homophobia of a minority, not, LGBT people are the issue... segregation engenders suspicion and persecution in the long run
Original post by clh_hilary
Tbh this is like the most obvious way to single them out. And all of their future employers will automatically know that they are queer.
That does seem to be a huge drawback of the concept.
I would also worry though about the nature of teaching and staffing of such a school, how long would it be before there would be a demand for LGBT staff only and would that be right? More importantly though, is it right or sensible to start dividing schools (and who knows, maybe eventually colleges) along sexuality lines? Are things really so bad for LGBT students?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
That does seem to be a huge drawback of the concept.
I would also worry though about the nature of teaching and staffing of such a school, how long would it be before there would be a demand for LGBT staff only and would that be right? More importantly though, is it right or sensible to start dividing schools (and who knows, maybe eventually colleges?) along sexuality lines? Are things really so bad for LGBT students?
I would also worry though about the nature of teaching and staffing of such a school, how long would it be before there would be a demand for LGBT staff only and would that be right? More importantly though, is it right or sensible to start dividing schools (and who knows, maybe eventually colleges?) along sexuality lines? Are things really so bad for LGBT students?
In anawer to your final, totally rhetorical question, not often. The cons of this segregation vastly outweigh the pros. One other thing the idea of this segregation misses is that there is discrimination within the LGBT community, such as by gay men against bi men, on some occasions, etc.
Original post by al_94
It's not that they will turn gay but I would rather them not be exposed to homosexuality. I never learned about this growing up and I'm glad I didn't. If I had children and they asked about homosexuality I would tell them it is wrong but if they are telling them at school that it is right then this would result in them being confused.
It's evident from your laughable attitudes that you didn't learn about sexuality as a child/adolescent. If you had, you wouldn't be spouting this nonsense.
As the posters say, "Some people are gay. Get over it!"
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Original post by Peter rocks
What i find comical is the people who say that we should mix LGBT people with Straights to teach them how to deal with homophobia and make others understand that gay people are normal. Firstly, religious/Asian people will Never learn to treat LGBT students or people in general as equals, and this is a hard fact because you can't change religions and cultures.
Secondly, IF we will achieve tolerance and equality(Europe, Oceania and North/South America) which i highly doubt we will, then it will take at least 20-30 years. It won't be anytime soon, and LGBT community will need to go through lots of discrimination, this is also a brute fact while afterwards there will still be Homophones just like there are still racists.
Finally, the world is a corrupt place, and those that say we should teach people to accept the minorities are basically saying we should let them be bullied and discriminated because whether you want to see it or not, generally people will NOT like two gays holding hands close them, or kissing each other near them and this is another brute fact. Hell i think that you can get killed in Egypt if you commit homosexual act, i think. Overall, i have no complains about building this school. Other than LGBT students will be easily identified and as i said employers refusing to hire LGBT students, this would be the only discrimination they would be facing, except the norm they are already getting.
Secondly, IF we will achieve tolerance and equality(Europe, Oceania and North/South America) which i highly doubt we will, then it will take at least 20-30 years. It won't be anytime soon, and LGBT community will need to go through lots of discrimination, this is also a brute fact while afterwards there will still be Homophones just like there are still racists.
Finally, the world is a corrupt place, and those that say we should teach people to accept the minorities are basically saying we should let them be bullied and discriminated because whether you want to see it or not, generally people will NOT like two gays holding hands close them, or kissing each other near them and this is another brute fact. Hell i think that you can get killed in Egypt if you commit homosexual act, i think. Overall, i have no complains about building this school. Other than LGBT students will be easily identified and as i said employers refusing to hire LGBT students, this would be the only discrimination they would be facing, except the norm they are already getting.
I am an American, and in my experience, "separate but equal" never works. There are lots of protests going on all over the United States right now, in places like Ferguson; Every generation has its own struggles. The 60s and 70s for us was civil rights, and my generation (in the United States at least) seems so far to be the struggle for LGBT recognition and fighting police brutality ("I can't breathe" as an example of police brutality [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/27/i-cant-breathe-t-shirts-high-school-basketball]). If you had said prior to the civil rights movement that one day blacks would be, for the most part, treated just like everyone else, many people would not have believed you. The way that things are now seems like the way that they will always be; and yet, change happens every day. Tolerance is learned every day. Right now in the United States, we are fighting for the police to stop racial profiling and for the demilitarization of police. And progress is being made as people are becoming more aware.
By advocating against segregation of LGBT students, I am not advocating for LGBT students to continue to be bullied. I am advocating for society to change its thoughts about LGBT students, because change will come. It may not be today, but history has shown that times will change, and what will help times change is by raising social awareness. In other words, making support for LGBT or other minority students a priority, rather than separating them off: separating friends, separating families, and creating a sense of distance between LGBT and non-LGBT.
We shouldn't be separating pupils based on sexuality. If your goal is to ensure LGBT+ students don't experience discrimination, what we SHOULD be doing is educating people from a young age about sexuality and that's it's okay not to be straight. Education, done in the right way, will drive humanity towards discoveries, new technology, and the betterment of society. Away from discrimination and old, nonsensical values. Instead of separating pupils, educate all of them regarding sexuality. By separating them, you may be protecting LGBT+ students from discrimination, but you're not really doing much to stop homophobia/biphobia etc.
This goes for all types of discrimination. If you don't like seeing something happening, don't cut people off from it, stop it.
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This goes for all types of discrimination. If you don't like seeing something happening, don't cut people off from it, stop it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Bullying is awful and an LGBT school would ensure 100% tolerance and understanding within that school. On the other hand, that school may be targeted by those that do not approve of people being LGBT (most obvious would be religious people) so that school may be subject to attacks. Imagine the students leaving at the end of the day to mobs of people shouting at jeering at them and screaming that they are sinners and being LGBT is disgusting and whatnot? What if they were to actually enter the school and disrupt lessons because they're so horrified by the prospect of LGBT people? Obviously this is extreme actions but it's still a possibility. Plus they'll be recognised by their uniform and stupid kids and adults will be able to pick them out and abuse them if they're imbeciles. At least in a school for everyone you can't really tell if somebody is LGBT and they're able to somewhat blend in.
It may build confidence being surrounded by people that understand you, but I feel that once they leave school and hit the real world it will come a them like a train and they won't be prepared for being in the minority group that are LGBT compared to straight people.
There's also the fact that a lot of understanding for straight people and learning to be tolerant comes from being around LGBT people. The old generations that are parents are currently raising kids the same way they were - to be hateful towards LGBT people (unless your parents aren't dicks like mine in which case THANK THEM FOR ME). Kids are getting these ideals in their heads that LGBT people are abnormal and all kinds of crap parents spew out and it's not until they make a friend that's LGBT that they realise they are just like everyone else and their sexuality does not affect their value as a person. Being around them MAKES them understanding. Seperating them will take away any chances of that happening.
Homophobia needs to be eliminated because seperating students is NOT the way. Schools need to make it absolutely clear that it won't be tolerated. They need to make sure that LGBT kids know that action will be taken. Students that continuously make comments or are abusive towards LGBT (and this goes for all kinds of bullying such as racism and such) need to be sat down with the Police alongside their parents and be lectured on the fact that if they tried that **** in the real world and were caught they'd get their asses jailed. If their parents are the same, they need to be put through some classes on raising kids to not share their bigoted ideals. Segregating will just make things worse.
It may build confidence being surrounded by people that understand you, but I feel that once they leave school and hit the real world it will come a them like a train and they won't be prepared for being in the minority group that are LGBT compared to straight people.
There's also the fact that a lot of understanding for straight people and learning to be tolerant comes from being around LGBT people. The old generations that are parents are currently raising kids the same way they were - to be hateful towards LGBT people (unless your parents aren't dicks like mine in which case THANK THEM FOR ME). Kids are getting these ideals in their heads that LGBT people are abnormal and all kinds of crap parents spew out and it's not until they make a friend that's LGBT that they realise they are just like everyone else and their sexuality does not affect their value as a person. Being around them MAKES them understanding. Seperating them will take away any chances of that happening.
Homophobia needs to be eliminated because seperating students is NOT the way. Schools need to make it absolutely clear that it won't be tolerated. They need to make sure that LGBT kids know that action will be taken. Students that continuously make comments or are abusive towards LGBT (and this goes for all kinds of bullying such as racism and such) need to be sat down with the Police alongside their parents and be lectured on the fact that if they tried that **** in the real world and were caught they'd get their asses jailed. If their parents are the same, they need to be put through some classes on raising kids to not share their bigoted ideals. Segregating will just make things worse.
I think that LGBT schools, although very inclusive, would not solve the problem of homophobia within education. It's important that LGBT+ students feel comfortable and safe at school but they should be able to do so without feeling that they have to attend separate schools catered specifically towards them. We need to target homophobia within schools as they are now and work on making current schools more LGBT friendly rather than just making new schools for LGBT students. Whilst some LGBT students might feel that they'd be happier and more welcome in an LGBT school, it could also lead to students feeling like they are the issue rather than homophobia, and that's not right in any way. Tackling the homophobia itself is the only way we're going to get rid of it completely and quite frankly a lot of schools could be more committed to their policies regarding the safeguarding of LGBT students.
I don't think this is a good idea. I understand the practice behind it. Nobody deserves to be bullied and they should feel safe and comfortable at school. The problem is segregating people. By doing this, it is suggesting that they're different. This isn't the case. They also have to learn to deal with the real world. Not everybody is tolerant and once they leave their safe haven of tolerance, they may have a tough time.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by friendsfan08
I am an American, and in my experience, "separate but equal" never works. There are lots of protests going on all over the United States right now, in places like Ferguson; Every generation has its own struggles. The 60s and 70s for us was civil rights, and my generation (in the United States at least) seems so far to be the struggle for LGBT recognition and fighting police brutality ("I can't breathe" as an example of police brutality [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/27/i-cant-breathe-t-shirts-high-school-basketball]). If you had said prior to the civil rights movement that one day blacks would be, for the most part, treated just like everyone else, many people would not have believed you. The way that things are now seems like the way that they will always be; and yet, change happens every day. Tolerance is learned every day. Right now in the United States, we are fighting for the police to stop racial profiling and for the demilitarization of police. And progress is being made as people are becoming more aware.
By advocating against segregation of LGBT students, I am not advocating for LGBT students to continue to be bullied. I am advocating for society to change its thoughts about LGBT students, because change will come. It may not be today, but history has shown that times will change, and what will help times change is by raising social awareness. In other words, making support for LGBT or other minority students a priority, rather than separating them off: separating friends, separating families, and creating a sense of distance between LGBT and non-LGBT.
By advocating against segregation of LGBT students, I am not advocating for LGBT students to continue to be bullied. I am advocating for society to change its thoughts about LGBT students, because change will come. It may not be today, but history has shown that times will change, and what will help times change is by raising social awareness. In other words, making support for LGBT or other minority students a priority, rather than separating them off: separating friends, separating families, and creating a sense of distance between LGBT and non-LGBT.
Well, to me it doesn't seem like LGBT tolerance is learned in America considering that several states rejected to allow homosexuals to get married just recently. I get what you are saying, but the civil rights movement was different issue to LGBT rights. LGBT is a minority. So, there is less and less interest in improving their quality of life. The civil rights movement was a universal problem that affected EVERYONE, and therefore enforcing laws was a necessity. We could compare racism to the LGBT discrimination and i still can't see any improvements being made in AMERICA to counter the LGBT discrimination.
I have seen UK legalizing gay marriage in 2013, and Germany is currently debating on whether they should legalize it as well. I can consider those as an improvement. There have been many important events already happening in the past such as the death of that Matthew guy, who was killed because of his orientation somewhere in America, and there have been no changes in tolerance occurring and even tough there is tolerance being shown to SOME groups, such as the Ferguson case i am not sure if we can compare it to this case.
Original post by Peter rocks
Wow.... you are wrong here on many levels, to me you sound like an sexist hence your victimization of girls, no offense but the forms of bullying you have mentioned are FAR too insignificant to be considered serious.
Suggesting any form of bullying is insignificant is just well, ludicrous.
All forms of bullying are 'serious'.
Original post by AspiringMedic8
Is there an epidemic of gingers, or Muslims, or fat people committing suicide right now?
No. However, lets just pretend that homophobia in wider society doesn't exist at all, most notably from older aged bigots, and that its all the education systems fault due to homophobia being ingrained with the education system. Again, homophobia is a much wider problem than just in the school system like many other forms of abuse. It is absolutely daft to suggest it is ingrained within the school when the whole of society has a problem. Simply put, people love blaming the education system as its the easy go to response. You can blame teachers and the system for everything as so many expect teachers to parent their children throughout the day as well as educate them.
You're an insult to the profession, and you're deluded.
Complains about bullying and then goes insulting people online. Great role model you are. Lets just hope you're never put in a position of trust and actually become a medic with that outlook and attitude towards those who see things differently.
Original post by Das Auto
Suggesting any form of bullying is insignificant is just well, ludicrous.
All forms of bullying are 'serious'.
No. However, lets just pretend that homophobia in wider society doesn't exist at all, most notably from older aged bigots, and that its all the education systems fault due to homophobia being ingrained with the education system. Again, homophobia is a much wider problem than just in the school system like many other forms of abuse. It is absolutely daft to suggest it is ingrained within the school when the whole of society has a problem. Simply put, people love blaming the education system as its the easy go to response. You can blame teachers and the system for everything as so many expect teachers to parent their children throughout the day as well as educate them.
Complains about bullying and then goes insulting people online. Great role model you are. Lets just hope you're never put in a position of trust and actually become a medic with that outlook and attitude towards those who see things differently.
All forms of bullying are 'serious'.
No. However, lets just pretend that homophobia in wider society doesn't exist at all, most notably from older aged bigots, and that its all the education systems fault due to homophobia being ingrained with the education system. Again, homophobia is a much wider problem than just in the school system like many other forms of abuse. It is absolutely daft to suggest it is ingrained within the school when the whole of society has a problem. Simply put, people love blaming the education system as its the easy go to response. You can blame teachers and the system for everything as so many expect teachers to parent their children throughout the day as well as educate them.
Complains about bullying and then goes insulting people online. Great role model you are. Lets just hope you're never put in a position of trust and actually become a medic with that outlook and attitude towards those who see things differently.
Don't even try to claim I'm bullying you, I said you were an insult to the profession because you've spent your whole time here arguing against the significance of homophobia in schools and why schools shouldn't/can't take any measures do deal with it.
And you're wrong. Homophobia is not a major societal issue in Britain. Only 17% of people think homosexuality is "morally wrong," and that certainly doesn't make them bullies. I've met many people of faith who disagree with homosexuality but they treat me with complete respect and would never victimise me. They certainly never made me feel depressed or marginalised.
But what did make me feel sick to the stomach everyday before school was the pupils I'd have to encounter. Being called a "poof," "fag" and "gayboy," having your trousers pulled down during PE in front of a teacher (who did nothing) and having people threaten you on a daily basis does make you feel terrible. My teachers never did anything. Homophobia was never mentioned in the bullying policy. They had very elaborate and serious procedures for dealing with racist bullying but homophobia was never even corrected. Once, when walking in the corridor, a gay guy was shouted at by a group of younger pupils who told him that our school was not for gay people. There was a serious issue.
On the other hand, when I changed secondary schools (for a largely unrelated reason), things were completely different. I never had a churning in my stomach every day before walking into school, I never wanted to skip classes because of the bullying I'd experience. And do you know why? Because everyone took simple, yet effective measures against homophobic bullying. Teachers would never tolerate homophobic language, the pupil council put homophobia clearly in the bullying policy, teachers had been trained by Stonewall and everyone was comfortable around the issue of LGBT.
So yes, I absolutely will blame teachers who are too careless to protect their pupils. Likewise, I have great respect for those who do all they can to keep their pupils safe from bullying.
Also, it's not even debatable whether homophobia is ingrained in the education system. It is. 17% of society thinks being gay is morally wrong, most will be older, few will be bullies, whereas 3 out of every 5 LGBT people are suffering homophobic bullying under the noses of teachers. There's a discrepancy and something needs to be done about it. Students in supportive schools very, very, very rarely commit suicide, and you as a teacher have a duty to make simple steps against bullying behaviour. I was annoyed at you because I found your complacency hurtful as it did not seem you understood the awful plight of gay teenagers.
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(edited 9 years ago)
No, the reason WHY you are being bullied is very important. If you are bullied because you wear different clothes, then change your damn clothes, it's NOT a serious issue like being bullied for what you are. You can't change who you are, if you are a gay, you will always be a gay, it's simple, as you said Homophobia affects many, not just those in school, but do people get bullied for wearing different clothes or listening to different music outside of school? there is a massive difference between being bullied for the color of your hair or for the clothes you wear to being bullied for your race or sexual orientation, but you are however reluctant to see that. People who are being bullied for the reasons you mentioned experience less harm than those who get bullied for what they are, this is a brute fact.
This school is a terrible idea.
Segregation and division is what we've been fighting against, not for.
Schools and centres for children and young people who have been victims of bullying to such an extent as they cannot re-enter mainstream school, whatever the motive for this bullying, already exist. This provision needs to be developed further. Safe spaces and youth groups for LGBT+ young people also already exist and must be further developed. These are good things.
However segregating young people and their educational needs, based only on sexuality or gender identity, is a bad idea. It suggests LGBT+ people are fundamentally different in ways other than just sexuality/gender.
Also, those who would likely benefit most with extra support with their LGBT+ identity are not those who would likely attend this school. Those with parents/families who reject their identity and receive no moral or emotional support at home, are not likely to have parents or families who would enrol them at such a school. Also, those who are victims of homophobic bullying in their communities are only likely to see an escalation of these problems.
Also, shall we segregate all services in order to be able to focus on the issues affecting the LGBT+ community? Shall we have queer hospitals? Prisons? Libraries? Leisure centres? If not, why not, why are these different to LGBT+ schools? Or should we have divided and segregated services and communities.
Finally, to believe that bullying would not exist at this school is naïve. Discrimination exists within the LGBT+ community already towards certain labels, bisexuality for example, or trans individuals. Also, bullying would still take place, perhaps not to such a great extent due to a persons sexuality or gender, but due to other reasons; class, weight, ethnicity, etc.
Terrible, terrible idea.
Segregation and division is what we've been fighting against, not for.
Schools and centres for children and young people who have been victims of bullying to such an extent as they cannot re-enter mainstream school, whatever the motive for this bullying, already exist. This provision needs to be developed further. Safe spaces and youth groups for LGBT+ young people also already exist and must be further developed. These are good things.
However segregating young people and their educational needs, based only on sexuality or gender identity, is a bad idea. It suggests LGBT+ people are fundamentally different in ways other than just sexuality/gender.
Also, those who would likely benefit most with extra support with their LGBT+ identity are not those who would likely attend this school. Those with parents/families who reject their identity and receive no moral or emotional support at home, are not likely to have parents or families who would enrol them at such a school. Also, those who are victims of homophobic bullying in their communities are only likely to see an escalation of these problems.
Also, shall we segregate all services in order to be able to focus on the issues affecting the LGBT+ community? Shall we have queer hospitals? Prisons? Libraries? Leisure centres? If not, why not, why are these different to LGBT+ schools? Or should we have divided and segregated services and communities.
Finally, to believe that bullying would not exist at this school is naïve. Discrimination exists within the LGBT+ community already towards certain labels, bisexuality for example, or trans individuals. Also, bullying would still take place, perhaps not to such a great extent due to a persons sexuality or gender, but due to other reasons; class, weight, ethnicity, etc.
Terrible, terrible idea.
(edited 9 years ago)
God forbid a sex abuse scandal hits this school
Original post by Peter rocks
If you are bullied because you wear different clothes, then change your damn clothes.
Visionary.
Original post by Oli-Ol
I realise that my argument was poorly though-through, I've just seen too much cishet-white-men
I realise that my argument was poorly though-through, I've just seen too much cishet-white-men
This is a new term for me, Cishet, but it took me a while to release meant cis-het, not just...Cishet.
Cishet...it sounds like either some sort of foreign weapon or cooking instrument..
You could "wield your cishet" or "cooking Moroccan X with the cishet"
....lol so ransom.
Though I suppose one interesting aspect of the LGBT community, well some of them, having this Cishet label used often as a seemingly derogatory term (from a quick googling) for how easy it is to be straight and how they dominate and such like , is that it ignores the fact heterosexuals are not free from difficulties in their sexuality. Homo/het/bi/pan/insert new term here sexuals can all experience sexual fetishes which can be incredibly difficult to deal with, to "come out" with, even more so than coming out as Gay/bi etc in some instances. After all coming out as gay, for the most part with our generation, is a pretty unremarkable thing, homophobes are shouted down. Where as if someone comes out as...a furry, ABDL, etc...well...not going to go well, the only fetish which seems acceptable due to exposure as it being a positive thing is mild BDSM and due to the ubiquitous nature of it, MAYBE foot fetishes within a relationship (though not to a wider audience). Folks gotta learn to stand together, it's getting better though.
...complete tangent.
Anyway school for LGBT, nope, because using my example above, where does it end? Does every group potentially at risk of bullying need a special school? No point doing that, means the bullies are winning, introduce it more to younger kids as acceptable* and stamp down on bullying (aka give a ****).
*Oh and for the complete idiots who reply with "oh ma gawd they'll turn gay tho!", yes....because being taught about something from Year 7 onwards makes you copy that. A man having sex with a man is okay? Well suddenly I find myself attracted to men too, I shall do it!...nope...we all know that's not how it works. Or maybe we'll all try Hinduism, I learnt about that in RE and that's okay...so I must do it...
(edited 9 years ago)
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