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Pupillage sorter - match your qualifications to chambers profiles watch

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    Found this:

    http://www.indx.co.uk/pupilbase/

    Stick in your qualifications/uni and it suggests chambers with juniors with similar profiles. Tip, if you aren't at Oxbridge, you're probably going to have to scroll a long way down the page to find your "zone".
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    An interesting idea in theory, though in its current form it is so vague as to be completely useless. Only two Chambers based outside of London are even on the list, whilst it is difficult to see how the results can be of any benefit in any event when it is only asking people which class of university their first and postgraduate degree came from and nothing else.
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    If you read the FAQ on that site you'll see that they are asking for feedback, so mail them if you have suggestions.

    Also, if you read the FAQ it says that they are taking it for granted that everyone has a first or 2:1 (if you are wanting more choice over degree class) - so there's little point in giving you options.

    If you also take a look at this article at Legal Cheek:

    http://www.legalcheek.com/2015/01/re...went-oxbridge/

    You'll see that they are also of the view that awarding university is more important than anything else: ie 77% of junior barristers have Oxbridge degrees.

    It seems to me that what it is saying is that to get into the choosiest chambers you're going to need at least a Russell degree and probably a Russell or Oxbridge postgrad award. If you have a non-Russell/non-Oxbridge LLB/BA/BSc and no postgrad qualifications, then you are going to struggle.

    True enough it does seem London-centric, but if you look on the Chambers Student pupillage list it says that 270 out of 350 pupillages offered are at London chambers:

    http://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/the...ring-pupillage

    I see 10 chambers listed on that tool as being outside London or having multiple offices.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Also, if you read the FAQ it says that they are taking it for granted that everyone has a first or 2:1 (if you are wanting more choice over degree class) - so there's little point in giving you options.
    Which is somewhat my point; it is not unusual for the class of a junior tenant's degree to be listed on the Chambers website, so if this tool is trying to match candidate qualifications to Chambers junior candidates it seems strange to make assumptions as to degree classification.
    (Original post by typonaut)
    If you also take a look at this article at Legal Cheek:

    http://www.legalcheek.com/2015/01/re...went-oxbridge/

    You'll see that they are also of the view that awarding university is more important than anything else: i.e. 77% of junior barristers have Oxbridge degrees.
    I think you mean 77% from the top 30 Chambers. I can't recall the exact percentage, but the proportion of overall pupillages that go to Oxbridge candidates is certainly below 50%. Still very high when compared to the number of candidates that go to Oxbridge compared to other universities, but not to the level that you're gleaming from that article.
    (Original post by typonaut)
    It seems to me that what it is saying is that to get into the choosiest chambers you're going to need at least a Russell degree and probably a Russell or Oxbridge postgrad award. If you have a non-Russell/non-Oxbridge LLB/BA/BSc and no postgrad qualifications, then you are going to struggle.
    Well yes, but frankly we're getting to the point now where any amount of casual internet searching will tell you that. This website is presenting a tool to 'match' your qualifications to Chambers, which is somewhat more specific than general advice as to the university you should be attending, and which in its current form the website falls well short of achieving to any useful level.
    (Original post by typonaut)
    True enough it does seem London-centric, but if you look on the Chambers Student pupillage list it says that 270 out of 350 pupillages offered are at London chambers:

    http://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/the...ring-pupillage

    I see 10 chambers listed on that tool as being outside London or having multiple offices.
    I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make here, or indeed why you're trying to defend any website that matches your qualifications to the right Chambers, yet doesn't include any Chambers that are predominantly based in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham or Leeds. Whichever way you care to spin it, that is a huge oversight considering the remit of the website.
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    (Original post by Crazy Jamie)
    Which is somewhat my point; it is not unusual for the class of a junior tenant's degree to be listed on the Chambers website, so if this tool is trying to match candidate qualifications to Chambers junior candidates it seems strange to make assumptions as to degree classification.
    I think the point is that you are unlikely to find any junior barristers with 2:2s - so there is no point in listing the grade.

    I think you mean 77% from the top 30 Chambers. I can't recall the exact percentage, but the proportion of overall pupillages that go to Oxbridge candidates is certainly below 50%. Still very high when compared to the number of candidates that go to Oxbridge compared to other universities, but not to the level that you're gleaming from that article.
    The BSB says that 45% of barristers called under 30 went to Oxbridge - the pupilbase website sasys that it found 65% in it's sample went to Oxbridge.

    I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make here, or indeed why you're trying to defend any website that matches your qualifications to the right Chambers, yet doesn't include any Chambers that are predominantly based in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham or Leeds. Whichever way you care to spin it, that is a huge oversight considering the remit of the website.
    Firstly, I'm not sure what your problem is. Are you putting in your qualification/uni and getting not a lot?

    Secondly, you can complain about the lack of representation of various cities, but it seems that you are not opening your eyes. There are three chambers listed as being having offices in Manchester, and one each in Leeds and Birmingham. If we refer back to the Chambers Student pupillage list we can see that there are only four chambers listed for each of Liverpool, Leeds and Birmingham, and six for Manchester - 18 in total. So it samples around 28%, which isn't so far removed from the national sample - as the BSB says there are something like 360 chambers nationwide, and the site has 110 listed (30%).

    I think your problem is that you are not understanding the method - awarding institution counts, this site just shows how.

    Like I wrote previously, email them and complain!
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    I think the point is that you are unlikely to find any junior barristers with 2:2s - so there is no point in listing the grade.
    I agree certainly that you're not going to find any junior barristers with a 2:2 that have the grade listed on Chambers' website. My point is that the distinction between a 1st and 2:1 is potentially relevant information that the website does not provide for.
    (Original post by typonaut)
    Firstly, I'm not sure what your problem is. Are you putting in your qualification/uni and getting not a lot?
    I don't have a 'problem'. You've posted a link to a website and I've commented upon it. The website isn't something that I would have a 'problem' with even if I was potentially within the class of people who had reason to use it.
    (Original post by typonaut)
    I think your problem is that you are not understanding the method - awarding institution counts, this site just shows how.
    I understand the method perfectly. The site itself says that it is just a bit of fun, but can give users an idea of where to focus their research. My point is that even within that limited remit it needs to be a few grades more comprehensive to be of any real use, as interesting an idea as it is.
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    (Original post by Crazy Jamie)
    I agree certainly that you're not going to find any junior barristers with a 2:2 that have the grade listed on Chambers' website. My point is that the distinction between a 1st and 2:1 is potentially relevant information that the website does not provide for.
    Hmm, I think that the point you are missing is that institution, in this case, is probably more important than grade. A 2:1 from Oxbridge probably puts you in a better position than a first from almost anywhere else. But, more importantly, if you try the options on that tool, you'll find that the top-ranked chambers are out of your reach unless you have an Oxbridge degree, plus an Oxbridge masters/doctorate.

    So, the chambers at the top are recruiting Oxbridge graduates, with Oxbridge postgraduate awards, and the ones at the bottom are recruiting from outside the Russell Group, and those without postgraduate awards.

    The problem is that there is, evidently, not much at the bottom.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Hmm, I think that the point you are missing is that institution, in this case, is probably more important than grade.
    I'm not missing that at all. Anyone who has even passively googled becoming a barrister will be aware of the advantage you gain from going to Oxbridge. The BSB figures are clear on that point. My point is that that website is entirely superfluous if it only exists to tell you that institution matters. The idea behind the website goes further than that because it purports to 'match' candidates to Chambers, and that is what makes it interesting. All I am saying is that in its current form it falls well short of being useful in that regard both because of the simple nature of the information it analyses and the limited number of Chambers that it includes.
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    Well, if nothing else, at least it's a good way of bringing up a clear list of chambers in the more-or-less correct pecking order with their current awards. So thanks for the link nevertheless, even though I'd have to agree that it's not great for its intended purpose!
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    Seems to be an ongoing project, more sets added, some are even from outside London!
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    Fun thing Typonaut - when I did it, I went to the bottom end of the chart, with the 'lowest' Chambers it was suggesting for me, googled the pupil and he had STILL been to Oxford!!

    Crazy Jamie and Typonaut - I can't believe you had a student barrister-style argument about this - remember the secret when it comes to getting pupillage - you have to be the sort of person they want to have a drink with!!


    (Original post by typonaut)
    Found this:

    http://www.indx.co.uk/pupilbase/

    Stick in your qualifications/uni and it suggests chambers with juniors with similar profiles. Tip, if you aren't at Oxbridge, you're probably going to have to scroll a long way down the page to find your "zone".
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    (Original post by ragandbone)
    Fun thing Typonaut - when I did it, I went to the bottom end of the chart, with the 'lowest' Chambers it was suggesting for me, googled the pupil and he had STILL been to Oxford!!
    I think that's the problem. The bar is so Oxbridge dominated that the higher ranking chambers have juniors with Oxbridge degrees plus an Oxbridge postgraduate qualification, which may even mean an Oxbridge masters and an Oxbridge doctorate. If you have not graduated from a Russell group university and don't have a postgraduate qualification (and I don't mean GDL/BPTC), then your choices are pretty slim.
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    (Original post by ragandbone)
    …remember the secret when it comes to getting pupillage - you have to be the sort of person they want to have a drink with!!
    That might be a problem. If you look at the disciplinary hearings for barristers there are two things that are recurring: the first is administrative errors (not doing/filing their CPD, not paying for their insurance...) and the other is… incidents related to alcohol (driving under the influence, doing stupid things under the influence…).
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Seems to be an ongoing project, more sets added, some are even from outside London!
    Interestingly enough, some of the new Chambers that have been added are ones that I am more familiar with, and the ranking for them is odd to say the least. I appreciate the rankings are based on rigid criteria, but using the staple Russell Group degree with no postgraduate course as an example, there are Chambers that are listed as 'out of reach' which I am quite sure wouldn't be, and equally there are Chambers lower down the list which may well be tougher to get into than the 'out of reach' sets.

    Still, it's quite clear from the number of Chambers that have been added in the last few days that this is very much a work in progress as you say, and it may be that it's at an earlier stage than we appreciated. It'll be interesting to see the finished product.

    (Original post by ragandbone)
    Crazy Jamie and Typonaut - I can't believe you had a student barrister-style argument about this - remember the secret when it comes to getting pupillage - you have to be the sort of person they want to have a drink with!!
    Not all internet interaction has to be related to or have a bearing on a person's prospects of attaining pupillage. Even practising barristers can occasionally fall into the trap of becoming engaged in a pointless internet disagreement.
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    What about baiting members of the press with texts about otters. OMG was that you!!?



    (Original post by Crazy Jamie)
    Interestingly enough, some of the new Chambers that have been added are ones that I am more familiar with, and the ranking for them is odd to say the least. I appreciate the rankings are based on rigid criteria, but using the staple Russell Group degree with no postgraduate course as an example, there are Chambers that are listed as 'out of reach' which I am quite sure wouldn't be, and equally there are Chambers lower down the list which may well be tougher to get into than the 'out of reach' sets.

    Still, it's quite clear from the number of Chambers that have been added in the last few days that this is very much a work in progress as you say, and it may be that it's at an earlier stage than we appreciated. It'll be interesting to see the finished product.

    Not all internet interaction has to be related to or have a bearing on a person's prospects of attaining pupillage. Even practising barristers can occasionally fall into the trap of becoming engaged in a pointless internet disagreement.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    That might be a problem. If you look at the disciplinary hearings for barristers there are two things that are recurring: the first is administrative errors (not doing/filing their CPD, not paying for their insurance...) and the other is… incidents related to alcohol (driving under the influence, doing stupid things under the influence…).
    What is your theory as to why that is? Is there not something of a 'work hard play hard' vibe amongst the bar to live up to?
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    (Original post by Crazy Jamie)
    Interestingly enough, some of the new Chambers that have been added are ones that I am more familiar with, and the ranking for them is odd to say the least. I appreciate the rankings are based on rigid criteria, but using the staple Russell Group degree with no postgraduate course as an example, there are Chambers that are listed as 'out of reach' which I am quite sure wouldn't be, and equally there are Chambers lower down the list which may well be tougher to get into than the 'out of reach' sets.
    Can you give examples? Taking it at face value it seems to say that the ones at the top are recruiting Oxbridge graduates with Oxbridge postgraduate awards (which seems to be true if you take a look), and the ones at the bottom are recruiting graduates from outside the Russell Group, without postgraduate awards.

    It's an open question as to whether any of these sets are actually recruiting pupils… and you can see from the sample that some seem to have a lot more juniors than others.
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    (Original post by ragandbone)
    What is your theory as to why that is? Is there not something of a 'work hard play hard' vibe amongst the bar to live up to?
    I think some of them are just knobs, and get caught at an early stage in their career (classic one being the junior who decided it would be a wheeze to shine a laser pen at a police helicopter!? - no alcohol involved in that one though), I suppose with most it is a quick drink after a long day turns into two, or three… and then they end up driving home from the station/whatever, and get caught.

    I'm not saying there's a huge amount of it, but aside from the outright criminal, total ********s and administrative oversight, there is a recurring theme of disciplinary action stemming from alcohol abuse.

    Take a look for yourself:

    https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk...nary-findings/
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Can you give examples? Taking it at face value it seems to say that the ones at the top are recruiting Oxbridge graduates with Oxbridge postgraduate awards (which seems to be true if you take a look), and the ones at the bottom are recruiting graduates from outside the Russell Group, without postgraduate awards.

    It's an open question as to whether any of these sets are actually recruiting pupils… and you can see from the sample that some seem to have a lot more juniors than others.
    The main example is that Northampton Chambers is ranked above the major sets from Birmingham and Leeds, suggesting that it is less attainable. I appreciate this is hardly an exact science, and indeed qualifications in general are more likely to have more to do with the reason why a pupil secured an interview than was offered pupillage, but in general I expect the vast majority of barristers would raise an eyebrow at the notion that Northampton Chambers is 'out of reach' for more candidates than the main Chambers in Birmingham and Leeds.

    (Original post by ragandbone)
    What is your theory as to why that is? Is there not something of a 'work hard play hard' vibe amongst the bar to live up to?
    The penalties for administrative errors don't surprise me at all; I've lost count of the number of barristers I know who, despite being brilliant legal minds, are entirely blasé when it comes to arranging their finances or dealing with other 'administrative' aspects of the job like CPD and insurance. Being self employed does bring with it an awful lot of responsibility when it comes to the administrative side of working, and plenty of people simple aren't willing or able to deal with it in the way that they should.

    The reasons behind the alcohol related issues will vary. It's not as simple as saying that there is a general 'work hard play hard' vibe at the Bar, because that is too much of a generalisation and suggests that potentially any barrister could be susceptible to having one too many before driving home. Like any profession there are always groups of barristers who go out drinking, and there will therefore always be barristers who have too much to drink and risk driving home. There will also always be events that barristers attend where drinking plays a prominent role, such as Christmas parties, Bar Mess and so on, but again I don't think there's an overarching reason why barristers get caught drink driving beyond them simply showing poor judgment.
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    (Original post by Crazy Jamie)
    The main example is that Northampton Chambers is ranked above the major sets from Birmingham and Leeds…
    Looks to be easily explainable: there is a small sample, only two from that set have a call of 2010 or later, and both of them have Russell Group postgraduate awards. If you compare that to, say, KBW in Leeds, again a sample of two, one is a Russell Group graduate, but neither have postgraduate awards. Similar pattern with New Park Court, No6 and Sovereign.

    Are you seeing something that I'm missing!?
 
 
 
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