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    6 Israeli soldiers were killed in the Gaza strip today. They were on the way back for a mission to destroy an explosives factory which could easily have been destroyed with missiles; however, they went in on foot to reduce Palesitnian casualties. Anyway, the vehicle they were in got blown up in a big way, because it contained a lot of explsives. The resulting explosion was so massive that their bodies got spread over a wide area. Their killers, not satisfied with killing the people, then rushed up and stole the various parts of their corpses so that they couldn't be returned to their families for proper burials; they have reduced to hand the corpses over. There are fears that the bodies will now be desecrated (as this has occured in the pasts to Israelis' corpses in Gaza)

    (btw, given that Israel faces **** likes this just to reduce Palestianian civilian causalties. I think it's fairly obvious that the argument that Israel doesn't care about Palestinian life is ridiculous).
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    (Original post by H&E)
    (btw, given that Israel faces **** likes this just to reduce Palestinian civilian casualties. I think it's fairly obvious that the argument that Israel doesn't care about Palestinian life is ridiculous).
    The Israeli state will act in the Israeli national interest.

    There may be all sorts of reasons why they would consider it in their interests to minimise civilian casualties, but "caring" is not one of them.
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    (Original post by llama boy)
    The Israeli state will act in the Israeli national interest.

    There may be all sorts of reasons why they would consider it in their interests to minimise civilian casualties, but "caring" is not one of them.
    Surely is it consider a factor, it cares about it?
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Surely is it consider a factor, it cares about it?
    Well, means and ends. It can care about then not being killed because of the negative foreign media coverage it will generate, or it can care about it because it actually considers their lives significant in themselves.

    Not having a specific go at the Israeli state, btw, it just seems to be a property of states in general.
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    Can I have a proper link, rather than a biased, emotive bed-time story.
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    They fire missiles pretty much randomly into palestinian areas, tear down palestinian housing(randomly), show total disregard for civilian life whenever they make any attempt on militants and this one action which most certainly is motivated by self interest (so people such as yourself could use it as an example that they do value palestinian lives perhaps?) suddenly shows Israel to be a 'caring' state? :confused:
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    They fire missiles pretty much randomly into palestinian areas, tear down palestinian housing(randomly), show total disregard for civilian life whenever they make any attempt on militants and this one action which most certainly is motivated by self interest (so people such as yourself could use it as an example that they do value palestinian lives perhaps?) suddenly shows Israel to be a 'caring' state? :confused:
    Are you illiterate, blind, or just stupid? I've just cited a case where they knew where an explosives factory was, which was being used to create bombs to kill Israelies. They could very easily have bombed it, yet avoided doing so for the sole purpose of reducing Palestinian casualties. A unit went in in vehicles; 6 soldiers were killed, their corpses stolen by Gaza residents who refuse to return them to the families for burial. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. And you can still talk about firing missiles at random and a total disregard for civilian life? You wanna see an army which doesn't care about civilian life? Go to Grozny, you'll see heavy artillery just bombing the city centre. The situation in Israel is simply light years away. And so, I'm afraid, is your position from the facts.

    Oh and btw, Israel is a caring state. So caring, in fact, that Arabs in Israel offered the chance to join their brothers under the PA in the West Bank refuse, because of the huge benefits they receive in Israel, despite trying to bring the country down from their inside by their own admission. Road sign in Israel all have Arabic below the Hebrew; there are Arabic subtitles, produced at considerable cost, to every TV programme.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Are you illiterate, blind, or just stupid? I've just cited a case where they knew where an explosives factory was, which was being used to create bombs to kill Israelies. They could very easily have bombed it, yet avoided doing so for the sole purpose of reducing Palestinian casualties. A unit went in in vehicles; 6 soldiers were killed, their corpses stolen by Gaza residents who refuse to return them to the families for burial. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. And you can still talk about firing missiles at random and a total disregard for civilian life? You wanna see an army which doesn't care about civilian life? Go to Grozny, you'll see heavy artillery just bombing the city centre. The situation in Israel is simply light years away. And so, I'm afraid, is your position from the facts.
    It was a military operation, was it not?

    Then why can't the Palestinian army (or lack of) defend themselves?
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    It was a military operation, was it not?

    Then why can't the Palestinian army (or lack of) defend themselves?
    Who said they couldn't? What I said was barbaric was stealing mutilated bodies and refusing to let them receive a burial. Furthermore, if it's a military operation and everyone can do what they want to reduce their own casualties, I presume you wouldn't have complained if IDF helicopters just bombed the crap out of the factory from miles away. Oh wait, you would have, because that would have caused unecessary deaths and that's a disgrace. But when it's unecessary Israeli deaths that's ok...
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    (Original post by H&E)
    6 Israeli soldiers were killed in the Gaza strip today. They were on the way back for a mission to destroy an explosives factory which could easily have been destroyed with missiles; however, they went in on foot to reduce Palesitnian casualties. Anyway, the vehicle they were in got blown up in a big way, because it contained a lot of explsives. The resulting explosion was so massive that their bodies got spread over a wide area. Their killers, not satisfied with killing the people, then rushed up and stole the various parts of their corpses so that they couldn't be returned to their families for proper burials; they have reduced to hand the corpses over. There are fears that the bodies will now be desecrated (as this has occured in the pasts to Israelis' corpses in Gaza)

    (btw, given that Israel faces **** likes this just to reduce Palestianian civilian causalties. I think it's fairly obvious that the argument that Israel doesn't care about Palestinian life is ridiculous).
    Thank you fluffy, pink Israeli state that likes all cute small animals. Rot in hell you evil Palestinians who like to kill small children and digest their body parts.

    Oh please! This is the most pointless load of bullsh*t I have read for a while. And I've read a lot of Howards posts.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Who said they couldn't? What I said was barbaric was stealing mutilated bodies and refusing to let them receive a burial. Furthermore, if it's a military operation and everyone can do what they want to reduce their own casualties, I presume you wouldn't have complained if IDF helicopters just bombed the crap out of the factory from miles away. Oh wait, you would have, because that would have caused unecessary deaths and that's a disgrace. But when it's unecessary Israeli deaths that's ok...
    Stealing bodies so they can't be used for burial is diabolical.

    You still haven't given me your source, so how can I believe it?
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Are you illiterate, blind, or just stupid? I've just cited a case where they knew where an explosives factory was, which was being used to create bombs to kill Israelis. They could very easily have bombed it, yet avoided doing so for the sole purpose of reducing Palestinian casualties. A unit went in in vehicles; 6 soldiers were killed, their corpses stolen by Gaza residents who refuse to return them to the families for burial. This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened. And you can still talk about firing missiles at random and a total disregard for civilian life? You wanna see an army which doesn't care about civilian life? Go to Grozny, you'll see heavy artillery just bombing the city centre. The situation in Israel is simply light years away. And so, I'm afraid, is your position from the facts.

    Oh and btw, Israel is a caring state. So caring, in fact, that Arabs in Israel offered the chance to join their brothers under the PA in the West Bank refuse, because of the huge benefits they receive in Israel, despite trying to bring the country down from their inside by their own admission. Road sign in Israel all have Arabic below the Hebrew; there are Arabic subtitles, produced at considerable cost, to every TV programme.
    Mate, you really need to take a step back sometimes from a subject in which you are obviously emotionally involved.

    A favourable comparison with the worst military tactics currently on display in the world proves nothing.

    One anecdotal example of IDF behaviour is of limited use in assessing overall tactics and attitudes. For example, presumably bombing this factory would have caused a massive explosion?

    And the examples you cite in the final paragraphs are an example of the sort of thing that comes from giving equal rights (ok, you're not there yet, but soon) to all. Try to get used to it.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Stealing bodies so they can't be used for burial is diabolical.

    You still haven't given me your source, so how can I believe it?
    Because Hamas and Islamic Jihad have actually released a statement saying they have the bodies. Al-Jazeera has actually shown a video of a militant supposedly holding one of the heads of the soldiers. Need any more evidence?
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    Blind or illiterate?hmmm judging from your response you seem to believe i was referring exclusively to the event highlighted in your original post. As you seem to be unaware there is something of a 'history' of Israeli attacks on Palestinian compounds and militants by using tactics which cant really be described as discerning between civilian and soldier (if a militant can really be described as such). My point was that you seem to be ignoring the previous lack of civility shown by the Israeli state to the Palestinians within its borders and using this one event as evidence that the Israelis do indeed have a policy of trying to care for them. Quite what relevance the behaviour of soldiers in Grozny bears i dont know, you seem to be suggesting that the fact something worse is going on should bar Israel from critiscism...
    and if your land was stolen from you but the invaders offered you benefits would this automatically alter your attitude towards them?
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    (Original post by H&E)
    Because Hamas and Islamic Jihad have actually released a statement saying they have the bodies. Al-Jazeera has actually shown a video of a militant supposedly holding one of the heads of the soldiers. Need any more evidence?
    I just want to hear an unbiased (well, moreso) account of the event, so yes, I do need more evidence.
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    (Original post by llama boy)
    Mate, you really need to take a step back sometimes from a subject in which you are obviously emotionally involved.

    A favourable comparison with the worst military tactics currently on display in the world proves nothing.

    One anecdotal example of IDF behaviour is of limited use in assessing overall tactics and attitudes. For example, presumably bombing this factory would have caused a massive explosion?

    And the examples you cite in the final paragraphs are an example of the sort of thing that comes from giving equal rights (ok, you're not there yet, but soon) to all. Try to get used to it.
    Er...rubbish. In this country, treason is illegal, indeed punishable by death. You have a group of people here who make no bones about the fact their aim in life is the destruction of the state. In my book, giving them state benefits is generous. Further, there is no requirement to introduce signs in Arabic etc. The country's large majority speaks Hebrew, and does not speak Arabic. Once again, Israel is being more than generous. The same is true of permitting many Palestian Arabs to work in Israel, in the knowledge that many of them are coming carrying bombs.

    I admit the Russians are an extreme example. Let's take the US/UK invasion of Iraq. That random link in another thread showed 7,500 deaths in under a year. Israel has caused under 2,500 deaths in less than three years. Remember the US/UK war is supposedly an ethical one, of liberation, with a strong interest in maintaining good relations with the local populace. And stil they kill people at about 9 times the rate Israel has. Thus this is again a very favourable comparison with one of the more benign occupations in the world.

    And as for anecdotal, isolated incident - it really isn't. The IDF is in Gaza all the time (in fact it is there at the moment). It is also often in the West Bank towns. A few months back 23 soldiers were killed trying to arrest men who could have been killed using missiles. These are not isolated incidents at all.

    btw: there was a huge explosion anyway - a munitions vehicle was deliberately attacked - several vehicbles went passed, then the shot was fired. In fact, because it was in a built up area, I believe 7 Palesitnians have already died from the result of their supposed saviours' own actions. Be aware that explosives factory here is not some huge operations, it's a fairly small scale thing, only takes a few kilograms of explosives to arm a suicide bombers. So it would probably have caused no bigger an explosion that occurred anyway.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    6 Israeli soldiers were killed in the Gaza strip today. They were on the way back for a mission to destroy an explosives factory which could easily have been destroyed with missiles; however, they went in on foot to reduce Palesitnian casualties. Anyway, the vehicle they were in got blown up in a big way, because it contained a lot of explsives. The resulting explosion was so massive that their bodies got spread over a wide area. Their killers, not satisfied with killing the people, then rushed up and stole the various parts of their corpses so that they couldn't be returned to their families for proper burials; they have reduced to hand the corpses over. There are fears that the bodies will now be desecrated (as this has occured in the pasts to Israelis' corpses in Gaza)

    (btw, given that Israel faces **** likes this just to reduce Palestianian civilian causalties. I think it's fairly obvious that the argument that Israel doesn't care about Palestinian life is ridiculous).
    This is far from an unbiased account. Even you could admit that.

    Nevertheless, I shall look at these sites.
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    The closest thing Israel could get to a 'generous' action would be to give the Palestinians back their land. The whole bloody mess is our fault for giving away land we had no right to (another unfortunate hangover of empire). While i certainly dont begrudge the Jews a home state the moral thing for us to do would have been to give them one in Europe, a German province would have been quite just in my opinion but alas we shunted the problem into the middle east and deprived some Arabs in our dominion of their lands and rights rather than bear responsiblity ourselves.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    The closest thing Israel could get to a 'generous' action would be to give the Palestinians back their land. The whole bloody mess is our fault for giving away land we had no right to (another unfortunate hangover of empire). While i certainly dont begrudge the Jews a home state the moral thing for us to do would have been to give them one in Europe, a German province would have been quite just in my opinion but alas we shunted the problem into the middle east and deprived some Arabs in our dominion of their lands and rights rather than bear responsiblity ourselves.
    Are you out of your mind? A Jewish home in Germany right after WW2??? Haven't you heard of a little thing called the holocaust?

    Further, you didn't shunt any problem onto anyone. As soon as things got messy the British tried to leave (rightly, shouldn't have been there in the first place). At any rate, they soon did. But the problem was already there - 600,000 Jews living amongst Arabs of whom a siginificant majority refused to let them live at all, much less in their own state.
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    (Original post by H&E)
    How is it biasd? It's just a statement of a succession of facts. You really are arguing for argument's sake here - Hamas have said they have the bodies! How can you even linger a doubt this is somehow Israel, or pro-Israeli bodies, twisting facts? In fact, Hamas have even said what they intend to do with the bodies. I understand being critical of opinions etc, but here Hamas have admitted what the Israelies are saying. Surely you're not implying Hamas is in the pay of the wolrd Jewish propaganda machine (as FoxNewsRocks would probably suggest at this point).
    You are clearly getting quite worked up over this (and I have coursework due in 9 hours) so I'll call it a night.

    I would say that the keeping of Israeli bodies as a bargaining tool is absolutely unforgivable.
 
 
 
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