Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

B732 - Grammar School Bill 2015 (Second Reading) watch

    • Wiki Support Team
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    B732 - Grammar School Bill 2015 (Second Reading), TSR UKIP

    Grammar School Bill 2015





    An Act to introduce more Grammar schools in Britain.




    BE IT ENACTED by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—

    1: Legalisation

    (a) This bill will take precedence over any previous laws in regard to education or schooling.
    (b) Excluding 3(c), any new Grammar schools will be built at the Local Education Authority's discretion

    2: Grammar School Entry

    (a) The government will commission a study to be done on possibilities for reform of the process in which a child enters a Grammar School, with the aim of making it harder for students to be 'tutored' through it.
    (b) Following the results of 3(a), the government will setup an independent exam board to set and monitor Grammar School Entry exams following the advice of the commission.
    (c) One exam board will be responsible for setting all entry exams. All children will sit an identical exam.

    3: Existing Schools

    (a) The base funding for all existing state-run schools will be pegged at the same amount per pupil for all pupils in any Local Education Authority
    (b) Grammar Schools not already under the control of the Local Education Authority will become subject to the control of the Local Education Authority
    (c) If 20% of eligible parents in a non-selective area sign a petition for a school to change from a Comprehensive School to a Grammar School, a vote will be held and the result will be binding
    (d) If 20% of eligible parents in a selective area sign a petition to change a school from a Comprehensive to a Grammar School, the vote will be held at the LEA's discretion

    4:Commencement, Short Title and Extent

    (a) This bill may be referred to as the "Grammar Schools Act”
    (b) This bill shall apply to England
    (c) Shall come into force January 1st 2016

    Notes




    2(a) The commission will not just look into reforming the 11+ for Grammar School Entry but also at other methods such as incorporating Key Stage 2 results into the decision, having more and varied tests over a longer period of time and changing the topics that are tested on in the 11+. The aim of this will be to render private tutoring to have only a marginal effect on test scores, with the effect of children from poorer backgrounds being represented more
    3(c)'Non-selective areas' are defined as Local Education Authorities where less than 25% of secondary school children go to a Grammar School. 'Eligible parents' are defined as people who have children between the ages of 4 and 18 who live in the catchment area of the school
    3(d) A ‘selective’ area is a catchment area where 25% or more of the children attend a grammar school.
    Parts 3(c) and 3(d) reflect the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, which allowed votes to convert a Grammar School into a Comprehensive but not the other way around.

    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    What's changed?
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    3c = still nay
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Abstain. I'm not against grammar schools but the whole parent petitioning idea seems a tad populist to me.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Abstain still
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    Also if I have a child in a comprehensive and suddenly tge school changes, does my child have to do a test or face being kicked out and taken away from all their friends needlessly?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    Also if I have a child in a comprehensive and suddenly tge school changes, does my child have to do a test or face being kicked out and taken away from all their friends needlessly?
    Exactly. And since the majority of parents want their children to do well, won't most comprehensives end up being turned into grammar schools? That just defeats the purpose. How will they even 'turn' into a grammar school, without extra funding to provide better teachers and better resources. The petitioning section just overturns the rest of the bill, which is actually quite good in regards to equality for all students/families.
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    Political Ambassador
    Abstain. I definitely prefer this reading to the first but I think the value for the petitions should be higher. I'd suggest around the 35% mark.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    aye
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Nay as expected of me.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    Also if I have a child in a comprehensive and suddenly tge school changes, does my child have to do a test or face being kicked out and taken away from all their friends needlessly?
    (Original post by Magnesium)
    Exactly. And since the majority of parents want their children to do well, won't most comprehensives end up being turned into grammar schools? That just defeats the purpose. How will they even 'turn' into a grammar school, without extra funding to provide better teachers and better resources. The petitioning section just overturns the rest of the bill, which is actually quite good in regards to equality for all students/families.
    No, the changes will be phased in to avoid kicking out any pupils who fail the test. initially the change will apply to the year 7's, the year after they changes will then apply to the new year 7's. After a 7 year period the changes will apply to the whole school and the school would be a grammar school.
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    No, the changes will be phased in to avoid kicking out any pupils who fail the test. initially the change will apply to the year 7's, the year after they changes will then apply to the new year 7's. After a 7 year period the changes will apply to the whole school and the school would be a grammar school.
    Then that needs to be added to the bill. Also like magnesium said how are you going to improve teaching standards? Also if my child sing going to benefit from from the school being a grammar why should I vote for it?
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    Then that needs to be added to the bill. Also like magnesium said how are you going to improve teaching standards? Also if my child sing going to benefit from from the school being a grammar why should I vote for it?
    The selective and non-selective areas prevent an area from being flooded with grammar schools and it's up to the LEA to balance the school population about. Even if all parents wanted Grammar schools, additional grammar schools would not always result in additional places since all children attending would need to pass the standard entry exam. Grammar school is about pushing the brightest children and not always about better teachers.
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The selective and non-selective areas prevent an area from being flooded with grammar schools and it's up to the LEA to balance the school population about. Even if all parents wanted Grammar schools, additional grammar schools would not always result in additional places since all children attending would need to pass the standard entry exam. Grammar schools are about pushing the brightest children and not always about better teachers.
    It's funny how you can't use correct grammar when talking about framer schools:lol:
    but I'm pretty sure you didn't answer my question, and you need good teachers to push students.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    It's funny how you can't use correct grammar when talking about framer schools:lol:
    but I'm pretty sure you didn't answer my question, and you need good teachers to push students.
    Good spot. That was a typing error as I did not mean to pluralise school.
    How are you going to improve teaching standards?

    Most teachers are fantastic but find themselves constrained in a system failing the brightest children. Grammar schools will allow teachers to teach those talented children who want to learn, and do not see going to school as a monotonous, boring task.
    Also if my child sing going to benefit from from the school being a grammar why should I vote for it?
    I am unsure what you mean by this question.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    With regards to 3a, does this mean spending per pupil is the same nationwide? So pupils in London have less spent on them in real terms than pupils in the North?
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Good spot. That was a typing error as I did not mean to pluralise school.

    Most teachers are fantastic but find themselves constrained in a system failing the brightest children. Grammar schools will allow teachers to teach those talented children who want to learn, and do not see going to school as a monotonous, boring task.

    I am unsure what you mean by this question.
    I would refute some of what you said as I've met many people who went to grammar school and found it a boring monotonous task. And I have also had many bad teachers who would never survive in a grammar school. Due to their complete ineptitude.

    sorry I meant to say 'so if my child is going to a comprehensive school and wouldn't get the benefit of going to a grammar if it were to change why would I vote for the school to become a grammar? How would you even get the 20% of pearents to care enough to force the vote?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Good spot. That was a typing error as I did not mean to pluralise school.

    Most teachers are fantastic but find themselves constrained in a system failing the brightest children. Grammar schools will allow teachers to teach those talented children who want to learn, and do not see going to school as a monotonous, boring task.

    I am unsure what you mean by this question.
    What if teachers currently in comprehensive schools have become used to the ways of teaching in comprehensive through supposedly "less bright" students who don't have such a thirst to learn as "brighter" students who pass the exam. Will they use the same teaching techniques? If so, won't that fail the students who pass the exams if the same system is implemented and the atmosphere of the learning environment remains much like a comprehensive school and not like a grammar school. Surely some kind of funds have to be used to implement new teaching styles/techniques to help the transition from a comprehensive to a grammar.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    I would refute some of what you said as I've met many people who went to grammar school and found it a boring monotonous task. And I have also had many bad teachers who would never survive in a grammar school. Due to their complete ineptitude.

    sorry I meant to say 'so if my child is going to a comprehensive school and wouldn't get the benefit of going to a grammar if it were to change why would I vote for the school to become a grammar? How would you even get the 20% of pearents to care enough to force the vote?
    A group of parents at primary schools or existing comprehensive schools close by with intelligent children can come together and sign a petition. It only takes one parent to start the petition and there is bound to be a parent who cares enough. The petition is in addition to the LEA deciding to turn a comprehensive school into a grammar school without a petition.

    I have noticed some teachers initially appear to be terrible but in different environments with the freedom to do as they wish their teaching improves. Selecting teachers will always be difficult but the private sector has managed to select great teachers for lesser pay, and comprehensives have many great teachers. It is a problem which does exist, but is impossible to solve. In comprehensives we do not want terrible teachers but they still exist. That alone though cannot be an argument against selective schooling.

    (Original post by Magnesium)
    What if teachers currently in comprehensive schools have become used to the ways of teaching in comprehensive through supposedly "less bright" students who don't have such a thirst to learn as "brighter" students who pass the exam. Will they use the same teaching techniques? If so, won't that fail the students who pass the exams if the same system is implemented and the atmosphere of the learning environment remains much like a comprehensive school and not like a grammar school. Surely some kind of funds have to be used to implement new teaching styles/techniques to help the transition from a comprehensive to a grammar.
    I think you are underestimating teachers by assuming they could be stuck in their ways or unable to change. Teachers can adapt and the change will be spurred by the children. If you have a class full of children who are quickly understanding the work the teacher is going to see this. I also think blaming teaching techniques misses the point. Teaching techniques are the same for all children initially. Teaching techniques used on slow children only come about as the teacher needs to explain something differently to make sure someone understands. If the child understands first time around the teacher moves on without using a different technique.

    The exams sat at the end will also be the same for children in comprehensives and grammar schools. The information the children learn will be the same too. The big difference will come in the background to the learning with grammar schools constantly talking about top universities, and how to enter professions such as law or medicine, whereas comprehensive schools will be talking about vocational courses, not top universities, and finding a job. I believe the overwhelming majority of teachers want their pupils to do well and will happily push them to reach their potential. Many teachers already do in comprehensives but the environment there doesn't always allow it.
    • Very Important Poster
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    A group of parents at primary schools or existing comprehensive schools close by with intelligent children can come together and sign a petition. It only takes one parent to start the petition and there is bound to be a parent who cares enough. The petition is in addition to the LEA deciding to turn a comprehensive school into a grammar school without a petition.
    Wow, wow, wow. I think you have an issue here. So this 20% using just parents of children at the existing comprehensive? It's also and local parent? So how far away can I live from the school before my opinion doesn't count? And is this majority vote still only taking place for parents of the school? Or can anyone vote in that too?
    also I have an issue with one person deciding to just build a school and that being a binding decision as with the LEA
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: February 8, 2015
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.