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We're not all woman-hating misogynists (and we don't care for the accusation). Watch

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    To all those it may concern on TSR,

    In response to a recent anonymous post, I (and others) strongly feel something needs clarifying. While it is known to most that TSR is home to a number of bigoted, hateful individuals with an ax to grind against womankind, they (on this forum, at least) are a smaller club that does not represent the views of the rest of us.

    I don't consider myself a feminist. I don't like what the movement has become, nor do I often agree with what I usually see posted online or voiced in public by "feminists." And I'm not an MRA, either. However, I am a firm believer in equal rights, and I don't believe people should be treated any better or worse on the grounds of their gender. I also believe in truth and honesty. But I still don't consider myself a feminist - and likely never will - because what I frequently see from the feminist movement nowadays is at odds with these beliefs. I see it all the time. So I do what anybody with a mind and an opinion does and I challenge what I see. If a misleading statistic is given, I aim to correct it. If bad logic is presented, I give a counter point. If a double standard is made, I call it out. But this does not make me or anybody else who does the same a 'woman-hater' or part of a misogynist pandemic merely because we are at odds with a feminist status quo.

    Now, If you should find us in error, then challenge us in return and engage in what is healthy, useful debate (and many of you do). This is a debating forum, after all. However, do not play pathetic victim games and hide behind accusations of woman-hating, misogyny, and bigotry. Perhaps if you were to make an effort to listen to us, you would realise that these accusations are unwarranted. And, importantly, don't get on your high horse and cry about how awful and 'sexist' the TSR population is when you have made no apparent effort to acknowledge the points raised (or you deliberately ignore us) and remain incapable of comprehending that when somebody disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a sexist.

    Yours sincerely,

    Dandaman1: a Non-feminist of TSR
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    Women challenge the prevailing ideology by calling out mysogyny and racism.

    Get accused of playing the victim game.

    Classic TSR.
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    I quite agree. Many feminists seem to think they have a monopoly on ideas like gender equality and basic human decency in opposing awful things like FGM.

    I don't agree with Margaret Thatcher on many things but she was right to describe feminism as a 'poison'. It pretends to address issues of gender inequality in society by focusing solely on the issues of one gender and in many cases giving it a leg-up at the expense of the other. It pretends to care about women but in fact only cares to invent non-issues in the societies of the top 1% wealth owners in the world.

    Most of them care nothing for giving women the freedom and opportunity to do what they want, as the recent Page 3 debacle made so painfully clear. Most feminists would like other women to have the freedom and opportunity to make their own choices in life except for the choices they disagree with.

    Most importantly, it stands for nothing. It is a childish club with all the indistinctness and slipperiness of a Soviet secret police which cares only really for the feeling of self-righteousness self-ascribed membership gives them.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Women challenge the prevailing ideology by calling out mysogyny and racism.

    Get accused of playing the victim game.

    Classic TSR.
    Racism? Stop trying to conquer the moral high ground; the feminist movement has done nothing to help ethnic minorities. The only thing most feminists seem to have to do with race is continually blaming 'white' men for the social ills of society, with all the nastiness of Nigel Farage's UKIP, which is plainly racist.

    As for misogyny, what precisely are you referring to? Are you referring to pieces of music being allowed to be played, afraid that they will encourage men to rape women? Are you afraid of our liberal democracy allowing outlets to sell magazines featuring women choosing to sexually objectify themselves to adults?

    In today's world, feminists are almost always under the spell of a victim mentality.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Women challenge the prevailing ideology by calling out mysogyny and racism.

    Get accused of playing the victim game.

    Classic TSR.
    Western women are the most privileged class of people that has ever existed. Women in general enjoy enormous privileges that men never even dream about.

    Live a day in a man's life. It gets much harder than catcalls.
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    (Original post by 41b)
    Western women are the most privileged class of people that has ever existed. Women in general enjoy enormous privileges that men never even dream about.

    Live a day in a man's life. It gets much harder than catcalls.
    Yup just because I am a woman I must have no idea what it's like being a man despite living with one who I share every aspect of my life with. But this damn vagina just prevents me understanding the pressures he is under and experiences he is going through! Damn my womanly privelage!
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Yup just because I am a woman I must have no idea what it's like being a man despite living with one who I share every aspect of my life with. But this damn vagina just prevents me understanding the pressures he is under and experiences he is going through! Damn my womanly privelage!
    I'm glad to see a feminist understanding that someone does not need to literally be a man or women to have an understanding of what problems that gender/sex faces. I'm tired of seeing others get told their opinion has no value just because of what is between their legs.

    On a different vein and as a general response to OP...

    Any remember that feminist who was writing a book on gender and had to pretend to be a man for 18 months? In the end she was institutionalized for depression and said she was never so glad to be female [sic].

    But yes, some nasty comments on TSR, or representation in media, or being called 'females' is clearly the epitome of oppression and misogyny.

    I found a good post on reddit in response to the above wikipedia page posted in TIL:

    Spoiler:
    Show
    As this concept was initially proposed in the Reddit headline, being a man, I rolled my eyes and scoffed. Reading the article, I found myself surprised that the author was capable of gaining insight into the opposite gender. Now I won't say all is so simply applicable, but some of it is and so much of what she wrote about dealing with women is true.

    To be clear, I am a man. I not just a man, I am a man who has no safety net. There will never be anyone to help if I **** up. Every mistake I make, I own to my death and do it alone. In this regard I am not special, nor should anyone feel sympathy for me. This is the very definition of the adult male condition; total accountability.

    It first and foremost the lack of accountability in women that I have found aggravating. It is not that all women are without a sense of accountability; they're aware when they're culpable. The difference is that they retort with expectations of apologies, happy endings and social leniency that seem absurd. They afford themselves the right to emotional responses and outbursts which would land most men in prison.

    One might argue there is a physiological reason for this. That I simply shouldn't compare circumstance. At 6'2 210lbs, the muscle I carry means that I don't have the same social rights as a 5'2 110lb girl to be angry, to be expressive, to vent. My stature and physical presence means that I must exert full control over my emotions and responses, no matter what happens. Did you ever consider that our unwillingness to share emotion was precautionary?

    Next is sexuality. Women flaunt it in jest, boldly when they feel insecure. In contrast they expect men to exercise restraint to meet their expectations while remaining assertive and confident. Many like the idea of a man they feel is powerful, capable of subduing them. Not just physically capable, but mentally.

    From experience with women who have sought me out for a 'bad boy' persona I projected, I learned the strict double standard. They approach me with the fantasy of danger, unpredictability and dominance. They talk about wanting a predator but in truth they want someone who will pin them down and make them feel helpless, while assuring them they're entirely in control and not being too rough. Strangely enough, the direction typically taken by these women isn't one of respect. It's quite the opposite.

    In general women react to men sexually as if only women are capable of experiencing real intimacy during sex. A process which involves them providing something akin to a 'fix' for a drug addict. This is especially true in long term relationships, when women no longer feel 'obligated' to provide their man with 'a fix'. Instead of intimacy it often becomes quip pro quot. For a man this is vicious cycle. Once he's numb, his self validations weaken. He doesn't believe his own pep talks anymore. He's conditioned himself not to respond emotionally to things you say, because if he did then by now he'd be in jail.

    In truth, for many men, physical intimacy and passion are often the only meaningful emotional intimacy they experience. Yet it's considered wrong of us to have an emotional need that isn't satisfied by a halfhearted 'I love you'. Between that and the inability to experience our frustration externally, we are trapped between an apathetic and bitter place.
    You'd probably think me a misogynist from reading that, but I'm not. Quite the contrary, I absolutely love women when they are passionate and genuine. I just wish they better understood the needs of men as more than just 'getting off'.

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    Went to a talk by Germaine Greer last year. Whilst as hardcore (and frankly 1960s/1970s) in her outlook as ever, she has slightly shifted on workplace feminism. She says that women shouldn't strive for equality with the current male working status quo, because it's crap. Men can have a dreadful working life (e.g. long unpaid hours, job insecurity, poor pay) and women shouldn't be aspiring to that. In her view, women should be seeking to improve working conditions for everyone, but on an equal footing.
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    Of course YOU would make this thread.
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    Can't disagree with the OP and Birkie.

    Yes to equality under the law. No to becoming a females cuck.
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    You clearly haven't spent any time on other forums if you think TSR has a reputation for being misogynistic
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    I'm in consensus, but I also have exaggerated fears around being intimate with women tied to pressures of gender roles and rooted in basic social anxiety.

    I do actually wonder whether my input is counterproductive to the feminism debate.
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    (Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
    I'm in consensus, but I also have exaggerated fears around being intimate with women tied to pressures of gender roles and rooted in basic social anxiety.
    Well, the rest of us don't.
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    Frankly that other thread that got posted makes me want to quit the debate forums on TSR forever myself.

    Just because I believe that women shouldn't have quotas for political representation, it is implied that I am white, male, heterosexual, misogynistic and a virgin. If that's the level debaters on this forum are operating from, it's an even bigger waste of my time posting than I thought it was.
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    (Original post by Truths)
    Of course YOU would make this thread.
    that's a feminist shaming tactic. Dandaman is one of the most reasonable anti-feminists on here.
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    (Original post by SamKeene)
    I'm glad to see a feminist understanding that someone does not need to literally be a man or women to have an understanding of what problems that gender/sex faces. I'm tired of seeing others get told their opinion has no value just because of what is between their legs.

    On a different vein and as a general response to OP...

    Any remember that feminist who was writing a book on gender and had to pretend to be a man for 18 months? In the end she was institutionalized for depression and said she was never so glad to be female [sic].

    But yes, some nasty comments on TSR, or representation in media, or being called 'females' is clearly the epitome of oppression and misogyny.

    I found a good post on reddit in response to the above wikipedia page posted in TIL:

    Spoiler:
    Show
    As this concept was initially proposed in the Reddit headline, being a man, I rolled my eyes and scoffed. Reading the article, I found myself surprised that the author was capable of gaining insight into the opposite gender. Now I won't say all is so simply applicable, but some of it is and so much of what she wrote about dealing with women is true.

    To be clear, I am a man. I not just a man, I am a man who has no safety net. There will never be anyone to help if I **** up. Every mistake I make, I own to my death and do it alone. In this regard I am not special, nor should anyone feel sympathy for me. This is the very definition of the adult male condition; total accountability.

    It first and foremost the lack of accountability in women that I have found aggravating. It is not that all women are without a sense of accountability; they're aware when they're culpable. The difference is that they retort with expectations of apologies, happy endings and social leniency that seem absurd. They afford themselves the right to emotional responses and outbursts which would land most men in prison.

    One might argue there is a physiological reason for this. That I simply shouldn't compare circumstance. At 6'2 210lbs, the muscle I carry means that I don't have the same social rights as a 5'2 110lb girl to be angry, to be expressive, to vent. My stature and physical presence means that I must exert full control over my emotions and responses, no matter what happens. Did you ever consider that our unwillingness to share emotion was precautionary?

    Next is sexuality. Women flaunt it in jest, boldly when they feel insecure. In contrast they expect men to exercise restraint to meet their expectations while remaining assertive and confident. Many like the idea of a man they feel is powerful, capable of subduing them. Not just physically capable, but mentally.

    From experience with women who have sought me out for a 'bad boy' persona I projected, I learned the strict double standard. They approach me with the fantasy of danger, unpredictability and dominance. They talk about wanting a predator but in truth they want someone who will pin them down and make them feel helpless, while assuring them they're entirely in control and not being too rough. Strangely enough, the direction typically taken by these women isn't one of respect. It's quite the opposite.

    In general women react to men sexually as if only women are capable of experiencing real intimacy during sex. A process which involves them providing something akin to a 'fix' for a drug addict. This is especially true in long term relationships, when women no longer feel 'obligated' to provide their man with 'a fix'. Instead of intimacy it often becomes quip pro quot. For a man this is vicious cycle. Once he's numb, his self validations weaken. He doesn't believe his own pep talks anymore. He's conditioned himself not to respond emotionally to things you say, because if he did then by now he'd be in jail.

    In truth, for many men, physical intimacy and passion are often the only meaningful emotional intimacy they experience. Yet it's considered wrong of us to have an emotional need that isn't satisfied by a halfhearted 'I love you'. Between that and the inability to experience our frustration externally, we are trapped between an apathetic and bitter place.
    You'd probably think me a misogynist from reading that, but I'm not. Quite the contrary, I absolutely love women when they are passionate and genuine. I just wish they better understood the needs of men as more than just 'getting off'.

    absolutely relate to the Reddit post.

    Overall I believe as Redpill grimly our ports, that the vast majority of straight women like the principles of feminism for women all round, they'll support men's rights and freedom to break out of their role on paper, but in a sexual or private scenario despise the idea of men letting their guard down. Their internalised misogyny is so strong, in several cases. It'll take a few generations before this effect is reversed and no way in hell is it happening during the aftermath of a financial crisis, people have reverted to conservative values for a reason.
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    (Original post by Smash Bandicoot)
    that's a feminist shaming tactic. Dandaman is one of the most reasonable anti-feminists on here.
    Do I have a fan?
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    Do I have a fan?
    I've always thought you were just pro-women enough to actually get listened to lots of other guys get stuck either white-knighting or full-on PUA//Redpill theory/MGTOW, general misogyny etc. We have very few guys who could rebuild the MRA movement o egalitarianism for the better, we need more of them. I'm not experienced enough and too, er, compromised in my world view to do it, I reckon you and say Scrotgrot and Birkenhead have the best chances out of the guys on TSR.
 
 
 
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