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    When is it ok to break the law?
    I give one example of breaking the speed limit to save a life. In Australia this is still illegal as a woman was clocked doing close to 200kmh whilst trying to get her infant daughter to hospital. She not only lost her daughter, she also lost her license for 18 months and copped a $1300 fine. This begs the question, is it ever ethically ok to break the law?

    Edit: The woman lived in rural South Australia and the nearest town with a hospital was some 60km away. A good 40 minute drive on most roads.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    The end would have to justify the means in my book, like in your example, or say smashing a car window to save an overheating and dying dog in the back. You'd have to somehow weigh up the end against the crime, which is subjective and not always very easy. It seems the police don't often take these things into account.
    So it would seem, but it also seems to be a case of ****ed if you do and ****ed if you don't. 'Duty of Care' This little phrase is something I see coming up more and more often in my work with the Scouts Association. Though I used a different example of ethical decision above. I was recently hauled over the coals for administering an asthma puffer to a 9yr old child. I knew the child to be asthmatic, and I knew that there was an 'in-date' puffer in the hiking first aid kit. Other considerations are the fact that the weather was relatively cool and it was the act of walking outside into the cold air that set off the child's asthma attack. Was I to simply call the ambulance and parents whilst sitting back hoping for the best? Or was I to exercise my duty of care and administer the puffer?
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    I think sometimes breaking the law can be justified. It's also how a lot of laws are eventually changed.

    I once attended a lecture on legal / ethicl / moral issues and one senario was this:

    A 15 year old girl becomes pregnant. She is determined to keep the baby.
    Her father does not want her to have the baby. He goes to see friend of his who is a surgeon. The surgeon agrees to operate and gives the father a sedative for his daughter.

    The following evening the father gives the girl the sedative, she is driven to a clinic where the surgeon performs an abortion.

    The questions we were asked to consider were;

    Is what happened legal?
    Is it ethical?
    Is it moral?

    It is legal, or it was at the time about 8 years ago.
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    (Original post by sashh)
    I think sometimes breaking the law can be justified. It's also how a lot of laws are eventually changed.

    I once attended a lecture on legal / ethicl / moral issues and one senario was this:

    A 15 year old girl becomes pregnant. She is determined to keep the baby.
    Her father does not want her to have the baby. He goes to see friend of his who is a surgeon. The surgeon agrees to operate and gives the father a sedative for his daughter.

    The following evening the father gives the girl the sedative, she is driven to a clinic where the surgeon performs an abortion.

    The questions we were asked to consider were;

    Is what happened legal?
    Is it ethical?
    Is it moral?

    It is legal, or it was at the time about 8 years ago.
    Hmm, one point in favour of the father is that he would be effectively contracted into financially supporting the baby. If he didn't wish to, then in some circumstances, what he did is legally right owing to the fact that at uner 16 years of age, the girls is still a minor.
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    (Original post by piginapoke)
    It would have been a complete piss take to call the ambulance for that, I'm sure the paramedics would have been a bit confused as to why you didn't administer it. There's a third solution here, I don't know if you've got a similar sort of service in Aus but here you can phone the NHS directly to get advice, so they could have advised you whether to administer the inhaler or just call an ambulance. The Scouts Association regs seem to be a bit crap, but that's what you get these days, nobody wants the liability of being given a massive legal bill if things go wrong.
    Thats pretty much it, well said The Scouts Association in Australia abides by the law that states (and this is in section 8 of some weird book I can't remember off hand) that medicines may only be administered by the person requiring them. This has been explained at great length to mean that, lawfully, I was not even allowed to hand the child a puffer. It also means that I can't lawfully hand a child a basic pain relief tablet like 'Panadol' which simply contains paracetamol.

    Lesson learnt I guess. Next time, I'm going to accidentally drop the medicine on the ground and walk away whistling.

    Edit: According to the law. We must first call the ambulance, then the parents, and that is about it. Sad isn't it? Because then we get 'duty of care' shoved in our faces and hope to God we don't get sued.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    When is it ok to break the law?
    I give one example of breaking the speed limit to save a life. In Australia this is still illegal as a woman was clocked doing close to 200kmh whilst trying to get her infant daughter to hospital. She not only lost her daughter, she also lost her license for 18 months and copped a $1300 fine. This begs the question, is it ever ethically ok to break the law?
    Frankly, whenever I can get away with it. Do you think my tax returns bear any relation to reality?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Frankly, whenever I can get away with it. Do you think my tax returns bear any relation to reality?
    How do you mean?
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    I presume he pays less tax then he should by law. Something like that.
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    (Original post by jammyd)
    I presume he pays less tax then he should by law. Something like that.
    Damn right. Why would I want to declare all my earnings and be faced with a higher tax bill than I would if I "accidently on purpose" forgot to mention something?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Damn right. Why would I want to declare all my earnings and be faced with a higher tax bill than I would if I "accidently on purpose" forgot to mention something?
    Thats always a point. Well done by the way Tax is a prick of a thing. Though I was kind of asking if there were mitigating circumstances for a pardon if you were caught breaking the law. Hmm that doesn't make too much sense, but I'll stick with it.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Thats always a point. Well done by the way Tax is a prick of a thing. Though I was kind of asking if there were mitigating circumstances for a pardon if you were caught breaking the law. Hmm that doesn't make too much sense, but I'll stick with it.
    OK. Understood. I doubt if I'd be pardoned. I'd be rewarded with a nice big fine instead.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    OK. Understood. I doubt if I'd be pardoned. I'd be rewarded with a nice big fine instead.
    Unless you were able to concoct (is that a word) or come up with a lovely story about forgetting that it was a charity donation and you forgot to write it off against your tax
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Unless you were able to concoct (is that a word) or come up with a lovely story about forgetting that it was a charity donation and you forgot to write it off against your tax
    That's why I make a point of collecting receipt books etc. And invoices of all kinds.

    It's amazing how a new electronic garage door opener for your personal residence that cost $500 can suddenly appear in your return as a new electronic garage door opener for your investment property that cost $1000 and get written of as an improvement.

    .
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    (Original post by Howard)
    That's why I make a point of collecting receipt books etc. And invoices of all kinds.

    It's amazing how a new electronic garage door opener for your personal residence that cost $500 can suddenly appear in your return as a new electronic garage door opener for your investment property that cost $1000 and get written of as an improvement.

    .
    lol, you're as bad as my missus. She does daycare out of her home and does stuff like that. E.g. a 50 cent packet of 2-minute noodles, but for nutritional factors she states that she buys them in bulk for about 70 cents. Then procedes to write them off on tax. At least I think thats how she explained it. Not really my area Clever stuff though. Out of curiosity, what do you do for a crust?
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    (Original post by Sire)
    lol, you're as bad as my missus. She does daycare out of her home and does stuff like that. E.g. a 50 cent packet of 2-minute noodles, but for nutritional factors she states that she buys them in bulk for about 70 cents. Then procedes to write them off on tax. At least I think thats how she explained it. Not really my area Clever stuff though. Out of curiosity, what do you do for a crust?
    Construction Project Manager for my daily bread. Amateur (but competent and fairly sucessful) property investor in my spare time.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Construction Project Manager for my daily bread. Amateur (but competent and fairly sucessful) property investor in my spare time.
    Interesting. Why the choice of property investor? My old man has been doing that for about the last 20 years (I inherit 4 houses waahooo hehe) and he was never able to tell me why. Except to say that if you play it right, you can't lose.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Interesting. Why the choice of property investor? My old man has been doing that for about the last 20 years (I inherit 4 houses waahooo hehe) and he was never able to tell me why. Except to say that if you play it right, you can't lose.
    Why property investment? One word. Leverage.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Why property investment? One word. Leverage.
    In what regard? Assets for further purchasing? Retirement value? Playing hardball with someone?
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    (Original post by Sire)
    In what regard? Assets for further purchasing? Retirement value? Playing hardball with someone?
    Here's an example.

    What dollar value of stocks can you buy with $100k? Simple. You can buy $100k worth! And, it the market appreciates by 10% in one year that stock value is now worth $110k. You have made 10k profit; a ROI (return on investment of 10%)

    Now think about property.

    If I have 10k cash, I can buy a 100k home. (10% is normally sufficient downpayment - in my part of the world anyway!)

    Now, if that property increases in value by 10% in one year it's then worth $110k. I put 10k in. My equity is now 20K. I've made 10k. But my ROI is 100%. A much better result than had I played the market.

    That's really what leverage is all about. Using a little of your personal money to secure ownership of assets many times more valuable.

    Now, here's a real life example.

    In February 2003 I brought a brand new investment property here in Orlando. I paid $176k for it. I put 10% down so invested 17.6k to control a 176k asset.

    I recently had that same property appraised at $233k so have made a profit in one year of $57k. In other words my initial investment of 17.6k has netted me a profit of $57k. That's a ROI of 325%! 325% in 15 months!

    But, it get's better still. I try to buy on 15 year loans. Obviously the shorter the loan period the quicker it amortizes (the principle reduces) The original loan of $158.4k is now down to around $149k. So, I've earned another 10k in equity. The house is worth $233k. I owe $149k. Equity is $84k. So, I've turned $17.6k into $84k in 15 months.

    That my friend is the power of leverage and why there are probably more property millionaires than any other!
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    Sounds about right. Thanks, that cleared up quite a bit for me.
 
 
 
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