The Student Room Group

Thatcherism

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Reply 20
Original post by illegaltobepoor
On paper Thatcher sounds like a hero but apply her ideology over 45 years of real time and your see that all she created was wealth for the top 10% and misery everyone else.

Neo-Liberalism and Neo-Conservatism has created a huge wealth gap between the rich and poor since 1970.

The idea that the rich will invest their money and create new business is a load of rubbish.

There are very few tycoons out there like Richard Branson. The majority of rich people simply use credit like everyone else.

The rich don't create much business as you may think.

Those who do create a lot of new business are the middle classes but unlike the rich they spend 99% of their income in the mainstream economy. The difference being the rich do not. The rich tend to spend about 5% of their wealth in the mainstream economy and a further 15% in the luxury economy. The remaining 80% is put in the bank or used for speculative wealth gain.

So trickle down economics does not work. The low tax system is just a way to siphon wealth from the poorest to the richest.

Thatcherism isn't just responsible for the trickle down fallacy but is also responsible for the complete dilution of public housing, utilities and services.

The thought that privatisation would decrease the costs of the needs of a household is a fallacy. In fact household needs have got more expensive year on year since 1970.

And this brings me to the dilution of our manufacturing sector which Thatcher is also responsible for. Unlike Germany who allowed their manufacturing workers to receive half dole money and half wages during the bad times we decided to lay all our manufacturing workers off. British Engineers are now a thing of the past and they are so rare that they get offered jobs outside of the UK. This has left our nation with little to nothing in the Engineering sector.

I think the only people who can truly respect and admire Thatcher are enter-pruners since she put in place the conditions to allow the exploitation of the poor in de-industrialised areas.

Thatcherism has had 45 years to try and fix Northern England and its unsuccessful.

Thank you for taking the time out to write this :smile: I take it you're not very fond of her. Yes I've heard many people talk about how the trickle down affect is in fact a myth and there is no doubt privilege buys more privilege.
Original post by Snagprophet
No-one really explains why they hate her. Oh she closed mines? Right because they were so successful and weren't closing already ...

Oh the miners became jobless? Yeah I remember when my town's economy was all in one basket and there was one type of job ...


Plenty explain why they hate her.

The mines were losing money and some arguably needed closing or at the very least reforming, no one disputes that. However it is the way she went about it which caused such devastation.

Millions of people were employed in this area of work, she simply threw them all out of a job in a very short period of time. She could have closed them gradually, allowing people an opportunity to seek other employment and plan for their life but she didn't, they were gone in an instant and millions became unemployed with no job and no income. These people had been in mines their whole lives, they had no other qualifications, they had no great prospect of finding another job immediately.

Secondly she offered no alternative to the jobless. She should like Germany and Denmark did have invested in green energy projects or other manufacturing or social services yet she didn't. She merely moved all their jobs offshore.

You could argue the mines were failing, but so too was farming yet she supported farming because it had load of rich tory donors in that industry whereas the miners supported Labour. It was as much a political attack as an economic policy.

Her policies left millions unemployed, homeless, starving yet she showed no care, no compassion and even hatred for her victims.

Thatcher's supporters like to cling to the 'right to buy success'. Yet this led to the biggest housing shortage the UK has ever faced. During her era homelessness was higher than it was during WWII when people's houses were being bombed.

Add to that her involvement in covering up Hillsborough, her support for the evil, brutal dictator Pinochet, her offering of support to the apartheid regime in South Africa, her war crimes committed in the Falklands, the poll tax requiring a mansion owner to pay the same amount of tax as his cleaner, her openly homophobic section 28 legislation, the recessions she caused, the highest level of child poverty ever, record levels of unemployment, a bigger rich-poor divide than ever before, promoting selfishness and greed, giving the police militaristic powers to beat up protesters...
And it's not hard to see why people hated her.
Original post by Matt347
Thank you for taking the time out to write this :smile: I take it you're not very fond of her. Yes I've heard many people talk about how the trickle down affect is in fact a myth and there is no doubt privilege buys more privilege.

trickle down.png
Original post by Bornblue
Except it created a huge shortage of houses and a 5 million person waiting list.
But yeah, one of the greatest policies wasn't it.
Mind you, when you think Thatcher was a man, it's no surprise you have such daft views.


Hi:biggrin:

From my perspective, over 1,000,000 council tenants owning their own home for the first time within 8 years of the policy being introduced was a pretty great achievement (especially considering how much bashing she gets from the left). Plus why would it still be in existence today if it wasn't a success?

We now live a country in which home ownership and having assets is encouraged, this is also economically beneficial in reference to equity release.

But you seem like a person I will never be able to cooperate nor want to associate with so let's just agree to disagree.
Original post by constantino_chr
Hi:biggrin:

From my perspective, over 1,000,000 council tenants owning their own home for the first time within 8 years of the policy being introduced was a pretty great achievement (especially considering how much bashing she gets from the left). Plus why would it still be in existence today if it wasn't a success?

We now live a country in which home ownership and having assets is encouraged, this is also economically beneficial in reference to equity release.

But you seem like a person I will never be able to cooperate nor want to associate with so let's just agree to disagree.


So everything in existence today is a success? Brutal dictatorships? The death penalty in the USA? The tax avoidance loopholes?

Something merely being in existence does not make it a success.

I don't call a policy which led to the biggest housing shortage ever a success, even adopting the most generous and broadest definition of the term 'success'
Reply 25
Original post by Bornblue
Millions of people were employed in this area of work


Yet, oddly less than 250,000 were NMU members :s-smilie:
I've encountered the same phenomenon of left-wing teachers pushing their views on students.
Original post by Matt347
Thank you for taking the time out to write this :smile: I take it you're not very fond of her. Yes I've heard many people talk about how the trickle down affect is in fact a myth and there is no doubt privilege buys more privilege.


If you want to admire someone start with someone who has created value out of nothing and was born poor.
Look at Lord Alan Sugar. That man is a living legend.

Personally my favourite inspiration is Duncan Bannatyne. Started with just a Icecream van.

Thatcher wasn't Born poor. She was a Grocers daughter. During the 60s Grocers earned a lot more than they do now. Thatcher was Middle Class at best.
Original post by Bornblue
So everything in existence today is a success? Brutal dictatorships? The death penalty in the USA? The tax avoidance loopholes?

Something merely being in existence does not make it a success.

I don't call a policy which led to the biggest housing shortage ever a success, even adopting the most generous and broadest definition of the term 'success'


OK you're definitely a lefty:rolleyes:

It's funny that you mention the death penalty as I'm in favor of capital punishment:cool:

All my opinion of course, you clearly cannot seem to handle that concept...but I welcome you're challenge.

Let me guess, you attend a private or top sixth form/college?
Having grown up with parents who hate her, I feel is something very ideological. It seems a lot of people simply hate her attitude, a lot of people blindly (stupidly) hated her because she was a successful Tory, but above all else I think a lot of people hated her because they don't recognise the need for change that existed.

You can argue all day long about her overall performance, but the fact remains that the country needed fundamental changes, and she made them. That on its own is impressive.
Original post by constantino_chr
OK you're definitely a lefty:rolleyes:

It's funny that you mention the death penalty as I'm in favor of capital punishment:cool:

All my opinion of course, you clearly cannot seem to handle that concept...but I welcome you're challenge.

Let me guess, you attend a private or top sixth form/college?


I am a lefty yes, even if you do use it as an insult i'll happily take having a social conscience as a compliment.

I do not and did not attend a private school or sixth form or anything private for that matter.

You can't possibly label a policy which left millions homeless and a 5 million person waiting list as 'the best policy ever', unless of course the victims don't matter to you, which being a Thatcher lover, doesn't surprise me.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by illegaltobepoor
You can either pull the carpet underneath the workforce in 1 pull or you can gently remove it. Thatcher destroyed the whole north in 1 big pull.

How can any group of workers reinvent themselves when they are all put on the dole?

It has taken up until now for the West to consider Coal Gasification. This technology was out in the 19th century. Yet we would have had the infrastructure to do it if it wasn't for Thatchers sharp elbow screw you method.


Do you know that because of the strikes being conducted in the 80s, key maintencqe work wasn't carried out on many pits (because the NUM told the pit engineers not to do it) and many mines couldn't open up after the strike had finished?

Coal gasification want needed because of North sea oil and gas.

http://www.scottishshale.co.uk
Original post by Bornblue
I am a lefty yes, even if you do use it as an insult i'll happily take having a social conscience as a compliment.

I do not and did not attend a private school or sixth form or anything private for that matter.

You can't possibly label a policy which left millions homeless and a 5 million person waiting list as 'the best policy ever', unless of course the victims don't matter to you, which being a Thatcher lover, doesn't surprise me.


I didn't mean it as an insult, it's up to you if you interpret it like that

And like with almost every government decision there are always going to be 'losers', to me it's about the magnitude of the positive impacts which takes precedence.
Original post by Matt347
My politics teacher's distaste for thatcher makes me feel that I have to conceal my admiration for her, does anyone else feel the same?


Go to your head and be anonymous. Most of the time you don't have to hide your political allegiance in the real world, though i did go to a debating club once which was full of lefties planning their next protest, i decided to paint myself much more centrist than i was.

Original post by Matt347
Not necessarily because of her policies, she comes across as very charismatic and I read that she obtained a scholarship to Oxford University to study chemistry and I find it interesting how people either love her or hate her.


She was never really charismatic, just ruthless and principled. University was free back then to be fair, she was smart though.

Original post by Bornblue
Except it created a huge shortage of houses and a 5 million person waiting list.
But yeah, one of the greatest policies wasn't it.
Mind you, when you think Thatcher was a man, it's no surprise you have such daft views.


More incomplete than a bad policy per say. If we say that a 2 bedroom social house costs £110k to build on average then we should keep the right to buy but only sell at £120k or higher, that would allow for the tenant to get a discount aiding social mobility while replacing the stock (or do it regionally to take account of price differences).
Original post by Rakas21
More incomplete than a bad policy per say. If we say that a 2 bedroom social house costs £110k to build on average then we should keep the right to buy but only sell at £120k or higher, that would allow for the tenant to get a discount aiding social mobility while replacing the stock (or do it regionally to take account of price differences).


I agree, I believe that the sentiment and the concept made it one of the better policies made by a UK prime minister in recent memory
I personally think a good 10 years of Tory class war is good for the UK. It gives every generation or so a good idea of how Thatcherism works. The idea of screwing the majority over so a select few can live like kings. The end result though is a land slide for political parties with Socialist ideas.

The Tories know they can't play by the old rules though. This is why in 5 years they have tried to utterly shrink the state. They have also tried to re-brand themselves as the workers party which isn't going to well. They've also introduced Universal Credit which is like Tax Credits on steroids which tops up your income if you work between 1 and 70 hours on min-wage.

I think the Tories know the game is up. Now they are trying to convince the youth that they are a pro-worker party. Its obvious by how many youngsters are being fooled on here.

I bet some of you think your be rich too by just doing everything the Tories tell you to do. LOL!
Original post by illegaltobepoor
Anyway ding dong the witch is dead the wicked witch is dead.


You're a bit late....
Original post by meenu89
You're a bit late....


Nah the hate for Thatcher is so strong that is resonates though out time and space.
Original post by Matt347
Thank you for taking the time out to write this :smile: I take it you're not very fond of her. Yes I've heard many people talk about how the trickle down affect is in fact a myth and there is no doubt privilege buys more privilege.


The problem with trickle down is that there's no fixed definition of what must be achieved to consider trickling down to be achieved. So right from the start there's ambiguity.

In general though i think it's important to seperate people and business. When looking at business it is absolutely the case that lowering costs (including taxation) does provide some some 'trickle down' (more hiring, more reinvestment/expansion creating jobs in the supply chain, in theory more money for pay - this one has not really occured). Unfortunately it's much less true to say that lowering income or wealth taxes encourages trickle down because the globalised world we live in allows somebody to offshore in the Caymans, pay a £50k to be a non-dom in London and get a tax discount and then go spend their money (consume) in Monaco.

So in short, yes we should lower business costs (scrap business rates and simply impose a tax on revenues above £1bn to milk big business) but no we should not pander to rich individuals (though we should try keep them here if we can).

Original post by The_Mighty_Bush
I've encountered the same phenomenon of left-wing teachers pushing their views on students.


Only a few days ago there was a sociology student in the society sub-forum telling us that he was studying a module about oppression of the patriarchy. Horrid!
Original post by constantino_chr
I agree, I believe that the sentiment and the concept made it one of the better policies made by a UK prime minister in recent memory


Great politically too. In 2010 45% of those with a bought and paid for home voted Tory.

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