Why EVEL is evil (and stupid)

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young_guns
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The Tories appear determined to place base political calculation above the interests of our United Kingdom. I do wonder if they plan to drop the unionist part of their full title the Conservative and Unionist Party, given EVEL is hugely provocative to the Scots and might well push them out the door when they are told their MPs at Westminster will be second-tier MPs.

EVEL (English votes for English laws) is an idiotic proposal, poorly thought through and obviously designed with one thing in mind; to wedge the Labour Party. It has been rejected by the Smith Commission (appointed by this government). It is a puerile proposal for the following reasons.

(1) It creates a two-tier parliament, where Scottish MPs will only be able to vote on certain matters while English MPs can vote on everything. Such a parliamentary set-up would be completely unprecedented and a recipe for chaos

(2) It would mean you would almost certainly see a situation where a Labour Prime Minister who can command the confidence of the house can't even pass his own budget viz English spending. On the other hand, the Conservatives aren't in a position to command a majority in the house either. Splitting the legislature in that way, having the executive made up of ministers who do not control the purse strings is a total undermining of the whole basis of the Westminster system of government

(3) It would mean we would never again have a Scottish Prime Minister; after all, you couldn't really have a PM who was unable to vote on his own budget.

The obvious solution is simply to have a devolved English parliament, or devolved English regional parliaments (as London will probably need to be some form of autonomous city-state); that ensures you completely avoid all the issues listed above. Of course, the downside is that it doesn't play into Tory political calculations, so they will no doubt reject it.

If the English want the UK parliament to be their English parliament as well, they need to accept that Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs are full and equal members of that body, and that the parliament must proceed in the way it always has viz. the PM commanding the confidence of the house and controlling the purse strings. If that is unacceptable, then pursue devolution for England

On a related note, this excellent article in the Spectator asks whether Conservative Central Office is dancing to Alex Salmond's tune

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeeh...g-for-the-snp/
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anarchism101
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Broadly agreed. English regional devolution is the only real way to introduce effective symmetry in the system. EVEL just creates a dual mandate problem and a potential contradiction between English and UK-wide governments (in which case the latter would be almost pointless, as it would end up only dealing with non-devolved matters for the rUK).

An English Parliament would be preferable to EVEL, but history can suggest that even under a symmetric federal system, one particularly large unit can end up de facto controlling the others, e.g. Prussia within Germany, Serbia within Yugoslavia.

So for me, the only real solution (apart from disunion) is English regional devolution.
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billydisco
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(Original post by young_guns)
The Tories appear determined to place base political calculation above the interests of our United Kingdom. I do wonder if they plan to drop the unionist part of their full title the Conservative and Unionist Party, given EVEL is hugely provocative to the Scots and might well push them out the door when they are told their MPs at Westminster will be second-tier MPs.

EVEL (English votes for English laws) is an idiotic proposal, poorly thought through and obviously designed with one thing in mind; to wedge the Labour Party. It has been rejected by the Smith Commission (appointed by this government). It is a puerile proposal for the following reasons.

(1) It creates a two-tier parliament, where Scottish MPs will only be able to vote on certain matters while English MPs can vote on everything. Such a parliamentary set-up would be completely unprecedented and a recipe for chaos

(2) It would mean you would almost certainly see a situation where a Labour Prime Minister who can command the confidence of the house can't even pass his own budget viz English spending. On the other hand, the Conservatives aren't in a position to command a majority in the house either. Splitting the legislature in that way, having the executive made up of ministers who do not control the purse strings is a total undermining of the whole basis of the Westminster system of government

(3) It would mean we would never again have a Scottish Prime Minister; after all, you couldn't really have a PM who was unable to vote on his own budget.

The obvious solution is simply to have a devolved English parliament, or devolved English regional parliaments (as London will probably need to be some form of autonomous city-state); that ensures you completely avoid all the issues listed above. Of course, the downside is that it doesn't play into Tory political calculations, so they will no doubt reject it.

If the English want the UK parliament to be their English parliament as well, they need to accept that Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs are full and equal members of that body, and that the parliament must proceed in the way it always has viz. the PM commanding the confidence of the house and controlling the purse strings. If that is unacceptable, then pursue devolution for England

On a related note, this excellent article in the Spectator asks whether Conservative Central Office is dancing to Alex Salmond's tune

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeeh...g-for-the-snp/
Because you're a leftie and therefore enjoy ****ing-over England?
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billydisco
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(Original post by young_guns)
The Tories appear determined to place base political calculation above the interests of our United Kingdom. I do wonder if they plan to drop the unionist part of their full title the Conservative and Unionist Party, given EVEL is hugely provocative to the Scots and might well push them out the door when they are told their MPs at Westminster will be second-tier MPs.

EVEL (English votes for English laws) is an idiotic proposal, poorly thought through and obviously designed with one thing in mind; to wedge the Labour Party. It has been rejected by the Smith Commission (appointed by this government). It is a puerile proposal for the following reasons.

(1) It creates a two-tier parliament, where Scottish MPs will only be able to vote on certain matters while English MPs can vote on everything. Such a parliamentary set-up would be completely unprecedented and a recipe for chaos

(2) It would mean you would almost certainly see a situation where a Labour Prime Minister who can command the confidence of the house can't even pass his own budget viz English spending. On the other hand, the Conservatives aren't in a position to command a majority in the house either. Splitting the legislature in that way, having the executive made up of ministers who do not control the purse strings is a total undermining of the whole basis of the Westminster system of government

(3) It would mean we would never again have a Scottish Prime Minister; after all, you couldn't really have a PM who was unable to vote on his own budget.

The obvious solution is simply to have a devolved English parliament, or devolved English regional parliaments (as London will probably need to be some form of autonomous city-state); that ensures you completely avoid all the issues listed above. Of course, the downside is that it doesn't play into Tory political calculations, so they will no doubt reject it.

If the English want the UK parliament to be their English parliament as well, they need to accept that Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs are full and equal members of that body, and that the parliament must proceed in the way it always has viz. the PM commanding the confidence of the house and controlling the purse strings. If that is unacceptable, then pursue devolution for England

On a related note, this excellent article in the Spectator asks whether Conservative Central Office is dancing to Alex Salmond's tune

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeeh...g-for-the-snp/
1) How is that any different to English MPs not being able to vote on Scottish matters but Scottish MPs being able to vote on English matters?

2) But its fine for Wales and Scotland to contribute 50 Labour MPs to tax England to death?

3) Diddums

Its very simple- if the other countries can vote on matters only affecting them- so too should England.
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billydisco
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(Original post by anarchism101)
Broadly agreed. English regional devolution is the only real way to introduce effective symmetry in the system. EVEL just creates a dual mandate problem and a potential contradiction between English and UK-wide governments (in which case the latter would be almost pointless, as it would end up only dealing with non-devolved matters for the rUK).

An English Parliament would be preferable to EVEL, but history can suggest that even under a symmetric federal system, one particularly large unit can end up de facto controlling the others, e.g. Prussia within Germany, Serbia within Yugoslavia.

So for me, the only real solution (apart from disunion) is English regional devolution.
You haven't actually explained why it is fine for N Ireland, Wales and Scotland to have their own parliaments, but not England?

England is a country just as Scotland and Wales are, yes?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by young_guns)
The Tories appear determined to place base political calculation above the interests of our United Kingdom. I do wonder if they plan to drop the unionist part of their full title the Conservative and Unionist Party, given EVEL is hugely provocative to the Scots and might well push them out the door when they are told their MPs at Westminster will be second-tier MPs.

EVEL (English votes for English laws) is an idiotic proposal, poorly thought through and obviously designed with one thing in mind; to wedge the Labour Party. It has been rejected by the Smith Commission (appointed by this government). It is a puerile proposal for the following reasons.

(1) It creates a two-tier parliament, where Scottish MPs will only be able to vote on certain matters while English MPs can vote on everything. Such a parliamentary set-up would be completely unprecedented and a recipe for chaos

(2) It would mean you would almost certainly see a situation where a Labour Prime Minister who can command the confidence of the house can't even pass his own budget viz English spending. On the other hand, the Conservatives aren't in a position to command a majority in the house either. Splitting the legislature in that way, having the executive made up of ministers who do not control the purse strings is a total undermining of the whole basis of the Westminster system of government

(3) It would mean we would never again have a Scottish Prime Minister; after all, you couldn't really have a PM who was unable to vote on his own budget.

The obvious solution is simply to have a devolved English parliament, or devolved English regional parliaments (as London will probably need to be some form of autonomous city-state); that ensures you completely avoid all the issues listed above. Of course, the downside is that it doesn't play into Tory political calculations, so they will no doubt reject it.

If the English want the UK parliament to be their English parliament as well, they need to accept that Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs are full and equal members of that body, and that the parliament must proceed in the way it always has viz. the PM commanding the confidence of the house and controlling the purse strings. If that is unacceptable, then pursue devolution for England

On a related note, this excellent article in the Spectator asks whether Conservative Central Office is dancing to Alex Salmond's tune

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeeh...g-for-the-snp/
So no mention of labour f***ing things up in the first place with a poorly thought out devolution model?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by billydisco)
You haven't actually explained why it is fine for N Ireland, Wales and Scotland to have their own parliaments, but not England?

England is a country just as Scotland and Wales are, yes?
It's pointless england having its own parliament. It's too big.

For a degree of parity it would be fairer to have regional assemblies in England. But you've just created another layer of politicians.
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billydisco
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
It's pointless england having its own parliament. It's too big.

For a degree of parity it would be fairer to have regional assemblies in England. But you've just created another layer of politicians.
How can England be too big to have its own Parliament when in 1995 the entire UK had its own Parliament?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by billydisco)
How can England be too big to have its own Parliament when in 1995 the entire UK had its own Parliament?
There's no point in having a english parliament as it would do exactly the same as the UK Parliament.
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tengentoppa
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EVEL is neither evil nor stupid, it is a way of solving an inherent injustice devolution has created.

EVEl is not the source of the issues you mention, devolution is.
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billydisco
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
There's no point in having a english parliament as it would do exactly the same as the UK Parliament.
No it wouldnt. It'd be more right-wing.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by billydisco)
No it wouldnt. It'd be more right-wing.
Take a long hard look at what devolution has achieved.

Gay marriage passed in England and Wales a year before scotland.

A smoking ban introduced in scotland a year before england and wales.

Driver education classes to be offered to motorists in scotland two years after they were introduced in England and wales.

chaos in A&E in English and Welsh hospitals whilst similar chaos seen in nhs Scotland hospitals.

How much more right wing can a UK wide welfare and health system get?

The only winners in this so far are politicians and civil servants.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by billydisco)
You haven't actually explained why it is fine for N Ireland, Wales and Scotland to have their own parliaments, but not England?

England is a country just as Scotland and Wales are, yes?
I did explain it. A single English Parliament would have jurisdiction over >80% of the UK population and as such would end up unsustainably dominating the UK, just as the aforementioned examples of Prussia/Germany and Serbia/Yugoslavia ended up doing. Regional devolution, on the other hand, would mean more equal devolved entities.
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billydisco
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(Original post by anarchism101)
I did explain it. A single English Parliament would have jurisdiction over >80% of the UK population and as such would end up unsustainably dominating the UK, just as the aforementioned examples of Prussia/Germany and Serbia/Yugoslavia ended up doing. Regional devolution, on the other hand, would mean more equal devolved entities.
An English parliament would have jurisdiction over..... England? :rolleyes:

The whole point of devolution is that each country rules itself! My arse can Scotland rule itself but England can have Scottish MPs voting on English matters.

****ing Scottish MPs voted England students would pay tuition fees and yet their own students shouldnt! That says it all really.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by billydisco)
An English parliament would have jurisdiction over..... England? :rolleyes:
That in no way addresses what I said.

The whole point of devolution is that each country rules itself!
Then why is London devolved and why was there a referendum on North East devolution as well?

Nationalism is part of the point but far from the whole point.

My arse can Scotland rule itself but England can have Scottish MPs voting on English matters.

****ing Scottish MPs voted England students would pay tuition fees and yet their own students shouldnt! That says it all really.
Hence why I'm in favour of English regional devolution. I never said I was happy with the current situation, just why both EVEL and an all-England parliament would be bad solutions to this particular problem.
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Jammy Duel
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Is devolution also evil and stupid then?
Fair enough it's not the exact same MPs but it's exactly the same in principle. The stupid part is the proposed implementation, but that's because it's not designed to pass parliament, in it's current form at this

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username878267
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(Original post by billydisco)
****ing Scottish MPs voted England students would pay tuition fees and yet their own students shouldnt! That says it all really.
I believe that was your own beloved right-wing Tory party.
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username878267
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Is devolution also evil and stupid then?
Fair enough it's not the exact same MPs but it's exactly the same in principle. The stupid part is the proposed implementation, but that's because it's not designed to pass parliament, in it's current form at this

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It's more the way Cameron is planning to pass it off as fair and 'the right thing to do' when every man and his brother knows he is ONLY doing to try and prevent a future Labour-SNP government passing the budget.
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young_guns
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(Original post by billydisco)
Because you're a leftie and therefore enjoy ****ing-over England?
Wow, I don't think I've ever encountered a more articulate example of rhetoric. I have no doubt you really are exceptionally clever; I'm sure all evidence to the contrary is just an act
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young_guns
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(Original post by billydisco)
You haven't actually explained why it is fine for N Ireland, Wales and Scotland to have their own parliaments, but not England?
I don't see why it's so hard for you to comprehend the idea that England should have regional parliaments
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