Discussion: PGCE or BA for Primary Education Watch

santogold
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I wanna become a primary teacher and I have two possible routes available to me.

1) I take up the year 2 entry offer to study BA (Hons) Education, Culture and Society, or continue my degree now followed by a PGCE Primary (with MFL <3), GTP or SCITT
or
2) I study for a BA (Hons) Primary Teaching with QTS.

I would like to start a discussion about the pros and cons about the different routes.
So... anyone>?
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Twist
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Oooh, good topic.

I'm applying for secondary so I'm not too sure on how it would differ. I suppose the BA in Teaching would offer more of a foundation in the actual teaching/classroom side and maybe give you more confidence in that aspect, building up over the 3 years. A PGCE would be a lot more intensive, with a lot of teaching fit into a year.

What does the BA in education/culture involve, exactly?

Personally speaking, I would go for the BA Teaching, but that's only my feeling. The other course does sound interesting though.
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santogold
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(Original post by Twist)
Oooh, good topic.

I'm applying for secondary so I'm not too sure on how it would differ. I suppose the BA in Teaching would offer more of a foundation in the actual teaching/classroom side and maybe give you more confidence in that aspect, building up over the 3 years. A PGCE would be a lot more intensive, with a lot of teaching fit into a year.

What does the BA in education/culture involve, exactly?

Personally speaking, I would go for the BA Teaching, but that's only my feeling. The other course does sound interesting though.
The BA in Education is a very education and creativity based degree.
(I wanted to post a link, but the Goldsmiths website is currently down)

The things is that I will need to support myself and a Teaching degree is a helluva lot more time-consuming than a non-teaching degree. In addition, the degree would leave open another option (catering for all possibilities). I have until July to decide, I think, so I will obviously visit the universities and ask about their time tables, etc. But who knows...

Anyway, anyone else with some input?
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fayesafine
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BA BA BA BA BA!!!!!!!!!!

I'm totally against the PGCE route because you are not taught all the subject knowledge and thats what you need as a teacher!

My cousin did the PGCE route, but did an english degree route first, followed by PGCE and has totally regretted it. This is because she has found it so so so difficult to get a job at the end of it. Why?? Because she has not studied all fo the subjects eg science, art, maths, english....

whereas BA:
you study loads of subjects in depth- therefore increase subject knowledge
study how to teach- professional studies
loads of teaching practice
and its not crammed into one year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-x-
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The Boosh
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BEds are often a lot of work but the work isnt difficult compared to other degrees. I know plenty of people with PGCEs who have jobs despite being in Devon where jobs are hard to find.
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The Boosh
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BEds are often a lot of work but the work isnt difficult compared to other degrees. I know plenty of people with PGCEs who have jobs despite being in Devon where jobs are hard to find.
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la fille danse
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(Original post by fayesafine)
BA BA BA BA BA!!!!!!!!!!

I'm totally against the PGCE route because you are not taught all the subject knowledge and thats what you need as a teacher!

My cousin did the PGCE route, but did an english degree route first, followed by PGCE and has totally regretted it. This is because she has found it so so so difficult to get a job at the end of it. Why?? Because she has not studied all fo the subjects eg science, art, maths, english....

whereas BA:
you study loads of subjects in depth- therefore increase subject knowledge

Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but surely by the time you've graduated university, you should have an indepth understanding of the mathematics and science taught in primary school? :confused:

I also thought that, in order to be accepted onto a Primary PGCE, you had to take subjects tests in math, science, etc.. to ensure that you have adequate subject knowledge in those areas. And if you fail those, then you have to take remedial courses, don't you?
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The Boosh
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(Original post by more adventurous)
Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but surely by the time you've graduated university, you should have an indepth understanding of the mathematics and science taught in primary school? :confused:

I also thought that, in order to be accepted onto a Primary PGCE, you had to take subjects tests in math, science, etc.. to ensure that you have adequate subject knowledge in those areas. And if you fail those, then you have to take remedial courses, don't you?
if you dont have gcses you have to take the tests. all trainees have to take qts skills tests too before the course ends.

but i agree with the rest - you are right, hence why BEds are not being taught at some unis any more.
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la fille danse
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(Original post by The Boosh)
but i agree with the rest - you are right, hence why BEds are not being taught at some unis any more.
I thought so...

Surely, if someone hasn't mastered primary school level mathematics by the time they've graduated university, there's not much hope for them... :confused:

The most important thing is learning how to teach, I think.
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santogold
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(Original post by more adventurous)
I thought so...

Surely, if someone hasn't mastered primary school level mathematics by the time they've graduated university, there's not much hope for them... :confused:

The most important thing is learning how to teach, I think.
But it is not all about those subjects, it is also about the foundation subjects, ICT and similar. I am sure they are covered to come extent in the PGCE. Also, like I said before, if you are a graduate, you should be able to grasp that knowledge, for all subjects, with ease from the NC and schemes of work, etc.
I personally plan to read a lot about the subjects prior to the PGCE or whichever route I will eventually take.

I'm sure the government, obsessed as they are with quality assurance, would have put a stop to PGCEs if they didn't prepare primary school teachers and secondary school teachers for their job.
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The Boosh
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exactly.

Ive dated and known various training teachers doing BEds and was suprised with their degree - very hard insofar as there was lots of work to do, more hours in the university or classroom than most BUT given that the work wasnt really academic in the HE sense.

I think the BEd routes are a strength insofar as you have 4 years experience of the national curriculum, planning, teaching, *resource making and collecting* etc. I dont doubt that its a cracking route if you are dead set on teaching at 18 and wish to do a 3-4 year course, but the pgce graduates are equally qualified to teach and are definately not worse teachers.
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santogold
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(Original post by The Boosh)
exactly.

Ive dated and known various training teachers doing BEds and was suprised with their degree - very hard insofar as there was lots of work to do, more hours in the university or classroom than most BUT given that the work wasnt really academic in the HE sense.

I think the BEd routes are a strength insofar as you have 4 years experience of the national curriculum, planning, teaching, *resource making and collecting* etc. I dont doubt that its a cracking route if you are dead set on teaching at 18 and wish to do a 3-4 year course, but the pgce graduates are equally qualified to teach and are definately not worse teachers.
I couldn't agree more.
In fact, I would like to do a BEd or BA with QTS, but for some reason, I feel my degree now will make me a stronger and more determined person than anything else will ever do.

Again, I am a fan of on-the-job training when it comes to teaching. GTP or SCITT is seriously my first choice at the moment.
And I don't see why I would make a worse teacher with those or a PGCE when I worked at a school during my degree. As a matter of fact, my degree now is based on my work, so it will be the in-depth study of (most likely) a school setting.

The other thing is that I'm not 18, but 25 and by the time I could start the BEd I will be 26. I have been to traditional university and don't really need that experience again.

(I am rambling, right?)
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The Boosh
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not rambling no. i agree with the scitt thing - if i had the option again i would do the scitt at a place which awarded a pgce at the end as well. the pgce was naff. the worry with the scitt is that your education is largely dependent on the quality of the school - and there are some dreadful schools training people at the moment. i dont think teachers necessarily make good teacher-educators and the programme would have to be overseen by a university. my girlfriend and i were placed in really dodgy schools and it was my visiting university tutor which recognised this and supported me (helps with the self esteem!).
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fayesafine
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hey

well im only speakin from my cousin's experience, and she is findin it very very hard to get a job, even though she did english at a uni.

There is a rumour going round that the government are thinking about stopping PGCE's because they feel they dont prepare you enough for teachin...but this was from teachers at a school in northern ireland, so i dont know if this will be the same here?!?
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la fille danse
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Are you sure that's the reason she's finding it hard? Exactly which primary school subjects is she lacking knowledge in?
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santogold
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It also depends on where in the country you are looking for a job!
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plasticblonde
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(Original post by fayesafine)
BA BA BA BA BA!!!!!!!!!!

I'm totally against the PGCE route because you are not taught all the subject knowledge and thats what you need as a teacher!

My cousin did the PGCE route, but did an english degree route first, followed by PGCE and has totally regretted it. This is because she has found it so so so difficult to get a job at the end of it. Why?? Because she has not studied all fo the subjects eg science, art, maths, english....

whereas BA:
you study loads of subjects in depth- therefore increase subject knowledge
study how to teach- professional studies
loads of teaching practice
and its not crammed into one year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-x-
i have just finished my degree, and i am currently working in 2 schools secondary and primary and i have a great insight into how the national curriculum is taught. also i am preparing for my interview for primary. if you want to teach work with children outside of school. i volunteer at many different venues and i have a great connection with the children i work with.
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