New York Councilman destroys argument that "It's Israel we hate. Not Jews. Honest."

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Algorithm69
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DiddyDec01
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I think he is about spot on.
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LockheedSpooky
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(Original post by G8D)
I think he's rightly isolated the people who unfurled the flag. In theory, however, it's entirely possible to be anti-Israel and not anti-Jewish.
True. Increasingly though we're seeing that what lies beneath many if not all anti-Israel obsessives, is anti-semitism.

Israel is probably the most obsessed about state in the world. Particularly by the left wing and Muslims.

Is this because Israel has killed more people than any other nation? no. Turkey for example has killed twice as many Kurds in 35 years than Israel has killed Arabs in 45 years. Britain has killed more Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq than Israel could ever kill.

Is it because it's the only country to live on disputed land? of course not, dozens of such incidents occur all over the world including Turkey in Northern Cyprus.

So one has to ask what makes Israel elicit such strong emotions from leftists and Islamists?

Most raging anti-Israelis are exposed eventually. Such as one of the leaders of the boycott movement whose private facebook message was accidentally made private. In it she says that Jews were behind the Holocaust. She too was only "anti-Israel" until the message was exposed.
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al_94
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This is what I call the ultra zionist. This loon was probably with these guys celebrating.

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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by LockheedSpooky)
True. Increasingly though we're seeing that what lies beneath many if not all anti-Israel obsessives, is anti-semitism.

Israel is probably the most obsessed about state in the world. Particularly by the left wing and Muslims.

Is this because Israel has killed more people than any other nation? no. Turkey for example has killed twice as many Kurds in 35 years than Israel has killed Arabs in 45 years. Britain has killed more Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq than Israel could ever kill.

Is it because it's the only country to live on disputed land? of course not, dozens of such incidents occur all over the world including Turkey in Northern Cyprus.

So one has to ask what makes Israel elicit such strong emotions from leftists and Islamists?

Most raging anti-Israelis are exposed eventually. Such as one of the leaders of the boycott movement whose private facebook message was accidentally made private. In it she says that Jews were behind the Holocaust. She too was only "anti-Israel" until the message was exposed.
Brits killing afghans? You should do some reading up on it. The insurgents killed more afghan civilians than ISAF.

The United nations estimate 75% of casulaties are insurgent related.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil...282001–14%29

Did you know that iraqis killed more iraqis in Iraq than US.
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childofthesun
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No. While I agree that many who hate Israel also have anti-semitic views, I do not believe that the two are indistinguishable. My feelings towards Israel are borderline hatred, but do I hate Jews or feel any animosity towards them personally? No
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LockheedSpooky
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Brits killing afghans? You should do some reading up on it. The insurgents killed more afghan civilians than ISAF.

The United nations estimate 75% of casulaties are insurgent related.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil...282001–14%29

Did you know that iraqis killed more iraqis in Iraq than US.
I'm not having a dig at the UK or US.

One could argue that by going into these countries we created the situation of the bloodshed, even if most of it was caused by Muslim on Muslim violence.

My point being that the UK traveled thousands of miles to attack nations that had not attacked the UK - killing untold thousands in the process.

Israel has not flown troops to other continents to fight wars. Israel is dealing with local issues and as such it becomes even more unfathomable how Israel elicits so much hatred when in the grand scheme of things, its conflict pales in significance to others.

One must always look at ulterior motives.

If Israel was the only nation on earth with black people and was exposed to such a ferocious hatred by those who had persecuted black people for millennia, I think in that context you'd be able to see a clear motive behind the hatred.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by LockheedSpooky)
I'm not having a dig at the UK or US.

One could argue that by going into these countries we created the situation of the bloodshed, even if most of it was caused by Muslim on Muslim violence.

My point being that the UK traveled thousands of miles to attack nations that had not attacked the UK - killing untold thousands in the process.

Israel has not flown troops to other continents to fight wars. Israel is dealing with local issues and as such it becomes even more unfathomable how Israel elicits so much hatred when in the grand scheme of things, its conflict pales in significance to others.

One must always look at ulterior motives.

If Israel was the only nation on earth with black people and was exposed to such a ferocious hatred by those who had persecuted black people for millennia, I think in that context you'd be able to see a clear motive behind the hatred.
The joys of being in NATO and the joys of article 5. Although I have to say that in my time over there the majority of afghans were happy have isaf there.

Interestingly though, although our home grown 'but youse are killing Muslims innit' brigade would get seven shades kicked out of them by their Muslim brothers because 'they ain't round from those parts.'

To counter the 'it's the west's fault' I'd like to point you in the direction of Kenya, Nigeria, Indonesia, the Philippines etc. They haven't got involved in Middle Eastern politics but they're victims of the crazies just the same.

I'm calling them crazies as they are. They don't represent Muslims or islam, but we need to acknowledge that there is a problem within the islamic culture, or to be more accurate, a group of ******s within the muslim community using religion to further a political aim.

Sadly, a small number of under achievers in the west who happen to be Muslim buy into this way of life. Not to different from the not too bright muppets who embraced other lunatic causes in the past.

Israel is a funny one. It seems to get from all corners. Extreme right wing neo nazis. Pro palestinians. Muslims in general and left wingers who hate them because their an ally of the US.

Israel isn't going anywhere. It's neighbours finally got around to understanding that some time ago. Unfortunately, the arab spring seems to have reinvigorated the non too bright in the region who seem to think pandering to a minority group of refugees who destabilise the host nation may be a political winner for them.
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A Mysterious Lord
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"I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist" is just the left wing equivalent of "I'm not racist but".
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LordMarmalade
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(Original post by al_94)
This is what I call the ultra zionist. This loon was probably with these guys celebrating.

Look, a squirre! :lol:
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LordMarmalade
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Brits killing afghans? You should do some reading up on it. The insurgents killed more afghan civilians than ISAF.

The United nations estimate 75% of casulaties are insurgent related.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil...282001–14%29

Did you know that iraqis killed more iraqis in Iraq than US.
No doubt. The comparison quoted by Lockheed merely speaks to just how few Arabs have been killed by Israel.

About 12,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel since 1948. More Muslims have probably been killed by ISIS in the last few months alone

Edit: I just reread Lockheed's comments, I would add I don't think he was entirely fair when he referred to the UK "travelling thousands of miles to kill people who didn't attack it" etc
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Everglow
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(Original post by A Mysterious Lord)
"I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Zionist" is just the left wing equivalent of "I'm not racist but".
How's that? Many people are anti-Israel/anti-Zionist but have little or no problem with Jews or Judaism at all. I think Greenfield is wrong to say the two terms are indistinguishable.
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generaljonny
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Its contextual. Clearly in this context there is anti-Semitic undertones, it was wrong to use the Holocaust as a political prop - the comparison was made directly. However, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is not the same thing. One should be able to criticise the actions of a nation-state - Israel without facing the charge of anti-Semitism. This is coming from a Jew.
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Friar Chris
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(Original post by Reluire)
How's that? Many people are anti-Israel/anti-Zionist but have little or no problem with Jews or Judaism at all. I think Greenfield is wrong to say the two terms are indistinguishable.
It's a sad way of trying to shut down any criticism of Israeli foreign (and domestic) policy by labelling someone as 'racist' (or worse 'anti-Semitic', because for some ridiculous reason, that's somehow worse than every other kind of racism) to vilify them and use the resulting ad hominem horror to distract and invalidate what they're saying.

Largely the same as calling anyone who discusses immigration policy 'racist' to try to invalidate any point they raise, except because 'anti-Semitism' has some mystical special status as worse than any other type of racism, it's even more potent.
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tengentoppa
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He is right to say that much criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. And equally Palestine would get nowhere near as much support were it not Muslim state. That comes back to the prevailing view in Islam that fellow Muslims are more important than non-Muslims.

However, that does not mean that the actions of Israel in the past half a century have not been objectionable, and Israel is perfectly happy to hide behind the accusation of antisemitism to stifle criticism. It would be wrong to equate all criticsm of Israeli actions to antisemitism.
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jakeel1
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Fantastic speaker.
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LordMarmalade
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Israel isn't going anywhere. It's neighbours finally got around to understanding that some time ago. Unfortunately, the arab spring seems to have reinvigorated the non too bright in the region who seem to think pandering to a minority group of refugees who destabilise the host nation may be a political winner for them.
Ironically enough, it was the Arabs who, by attacking Israel in 1948 and provoking it into war in 1967, gave it an opportunity to expand into sustainable / defensible borders.

And by doing everything they could to isolate Israel, the Arabs encouraged it to become economically self-sufficient and develop some really clever, innovative high-tech industries
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by LordMarmalade)
Ironically enough, it was the Arabs who, by attacking Israel in 1948 and provoking it into war in 1967, gave it an opportunity to expand into sustainable / defensible borders.

And by doing everything they could to isolate Israel, the Arabs encouraged it to become economically self-sufficient and develop some really clever, innovative high-tech industries
I know. You couldn't make it up.
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LockheedSpooky
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(Original post by generaljonny)
Its contextual. Clearly in this context there is anti-Semitic undertones, it was wrong to use the Holocaust as a political prop - the comparison was made directly. However, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is not the same thing. One should be able to criticise the actions of a nation-state - Israel without facing the charge of anti-Semitism. This is coming from a Jew.
Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a home of their own.

Being anti-Zionism is inherently anti-semitic and a court in Germany recently convicted an Islamic extremist for calling to murder all Zionists.

The judge correctly stated that he was using "Zionists" as cover for Jews and that this is a tactic used by many anti-semites.

I believe that Israel elicits hatred beyond what can be described as for solely political reasons. For example Iran doesn't garner anywhere near the hatred despite routinely hanging homosexuals, people of the Baha'i faith and other minorities.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by LockheedSpooky)
Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a home of their own.

Being anti-Zionism is inherently anti-semitic and a court in Germany recently convicted an Islamic extremist for calling to murder all Zionists.

The judge correctly stated that he was using "Zionists" as cover for Jews and that this is a tactic used by many anti-semites.

I believe that Israel elicits hatred beyond what can be described as for solely political reasons. For example Iran doesn't garner anywhere near the hatred despite routinely hanging homosexuals, people of the Baha'i faith and other minorities.
I think the person in question was found guilty of inciting murder rather than speaking out about Zionist beliefs.
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