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Child Genii at Oxbridge
I thought that it would be interesting to hear some opinions on this topic! 
This topic has been touched upon in the 'when should I apply' thread.
The St Hilda's Maths genius, Sufiah Yusof, was mentioned. She was only thirteen when she went up. She later ran away after her third year exams and blames her parents for years of "physical and emotional abuse".
Another example is that of Ruth Lawrence, another Maths genius. She gained a starred first from Oxford when she was only 13.
I found this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2492000/2492853.stm
I found the video quite saddening, as it is so obvious that she had not had the chance to be a child. She also seems fairly lacking in social skills.
What do you guys think?
This topic has been touched upon in the 'when should I apply' thread.
The St Hilda's Maths genius, Sufiah Yusof, was mentioned. She was only thirteen when she went up. She later ran away after her third year exams and blames her parents for years of "physical and emotional abuse".
Another example is that of Ruth Lawrence, another Maths genius. She gained a starred first from Oxford when she was only 13.
I found this link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_2492000/2492853.stm
I found the video quite saddening, as it is so obvious that she had not had the chance to be a child. She also seems fairly lacking in social skills.
What do you guys think?
Scroll to see replies
EmJ
What do you guys think?
Spoke to a couple of teachers on this point just the other day. Child genii very, very rarely fulfill their promise; there are many examples of this. Just about the worst thing you can do as a parent if you realise your child is very able is to push him/her over the edge. Firstly, it'll take the fun out of studying, which is never a good thing. Secondly, it will ruin their childhood and make it extremely difficult for them to function in human society. Once that happens, doesn't matter how clever you are, you are going to be miserable.
Children need a childhood and they need to learn how to be social. By prematurely immersing them in an environment where they have to deal with adults, you prevent them from developing into healthy adults.
If a child is a genius, by all means give them the chance to do academic work beyond their peers' ability, but don't uproot them by sending them off to uni before their time.
If a child is a genius, by all means give them the chance to do academic work beyond their peers' ability, but don't uproot them by sending them off to uni before their time.
H&E
Spoke to a couple of teachers on this point just the other day. Child genii very, very rarely fulfill their promise; there are many examples of this. Just about the worst thing you can do as a parent if you realise your child is very able is to push him/her over the edge. Firstly, it'll take the fun out of studying, which is never a good thing. Secondly, it will ruin their childhood and make it extremely difficult for them to function in human society. Once that happens, doesn't matter how clever you are, you are going to be miserable.
Yes, I agree with you. It is really important to have a balance between work and socialising. Imagine how many JCR activities you would be excluded from if you were 13! And after all the time that Ruth Lawrence spent with her father she later became estranged from him, moved to Jerusalem, and married a man only six years younger than her father.
Oh, and thanks for the rep! You've made my day!
EmJ
Yes, I agree with you. It is really important to have a balance between work and socialising. Imagine how many JCR activities you would be excluded from if you were 13! And after all the time that Ruth Lawrence spent with her father she later became estranged from him, moved to Jerusalem, and married a man only six years younger than her father.
Oh, and thanks for the rep! You've made my day!
Oh, and thanks for the rep! You've made my day!
Her father's behaviour makes the assumption that the only learning you do in Oxford is academic; of course, that is simply untrue. The "life-lessons" you learn are at least as important as learning how to do eliptical integrals or the precise causes of the French Revolution. You simply do not have access to these life lessons at 13 - trying to learn these lessons would be akin to a normal person taking on a maths degree at Oxford before doing GCSE maths.
(nb I'm glad I've made your day...)
H&E
Her father's behaviour makes the assumption that the only learning you do in Oxford is academic; of course, that is simply untrue. The "life-lessons" you learn are at least as important as learning how to do eliptical integrals or the precise causes of the French Revolution. You simply do not have access to these life lessons at 13 - trying to learn these lessons would be akin to a normal person taking on a maths degree at Oxford before doing GCSE maths.
(nb I'm glad I've made your day...)
(nb I'm glad I've made your day...)
I also wonder what these children can do after they have their degree, aged 13. Who would employ them? Even if they were old enough for employment, they would not have the social skills needed to work with others. All they can do is stay on at university and do research. That is if they don't rebel first...
EmJ
I also wonder what these children can do after they have their degree, aged 13. Who would employ them? Even if they were old enough for employment, they would not have the social skills needed to work with others. All they can do is stay on at university and do research. That is if they don't rebel first...
Mad huh... I don't think the parents brought them up properly to be honest. I wouldn't LET my child go to university at 13, even if they were capable! I'd get them to wait until they were at least 17.
I also agree that children should be children, and that they shouldn't be put through university at such a young age... but I voted "sometimes" because if they're denied from Oxbridge, then it doesn't mean that a pushy parent won't force them into another big-name uni, possibly abroad, which would be even more disruptive and perhaps increase any psychological harm the child endures.
Just thinking about this makes me feel sad. It must be really awful to be so advanced in one area and comparatively behind in the others, to be a child in an adult's world.
Just thinking about this makes me feel sad. It must be really awful to be so advanced in one area and comparatively behind in the others, to be a child in an adult's world.
I agree with you all how children need to have time to be kids and play football in the park, roll in the mud and eat sweets!!! I don't think Oxford, nor any other uni should take anyone under the age of 16 as the child's life went benefit in the whole - as you said, sure they have a degree at 13 but who would employ them.
Another thing that really annoys me is when after GCSE/A-Level results you hear about these wonderful kids who have taken A-Levels before their GCSEs but then you hear what results they get. Eg:
"A schoolgirl from London has become one of the youngest to pass an A-level examination.
Anne-Marie Imafidon gained an E in her computing A-level and a grade D in her maths AS-level - both taken when she was 11." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1494503.stm)
Her teachers believe that she is bright, but clearly if she was intelligent (already) she would have got higher than an E! Seriously, what was the point in taking the exam early, if you're so clever and could get a much higher grade in a few more years! What a waste of that child's time when they should be stimulating their mind in other ways and not forcing her into taking maths A-Level! No respectable unis will look at her D and think, "let's accept her" even if they take pity on her age when she took it.
What a waste of time!
Another thing that really annoys me is when after GCSE/A-Level results you hear about these wonderful kids who have taken A-Levels before their GCSEs but then you hear what results they get. Eg:
"A schoolgirl from London has become one of the youngest to pass an A-level examination.
Anne-Marie Imafidon gained an E in her computing A-level and a grade D in her maths AS-level - both taken when she was 11." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1494503.stm)
Her teachers believe that she is bright, but clearly if she was intelligent (already) she would have got higher than an E! Seriously, what was the point in taking the exam early, if you're so clever and could get a much higher grade in a few more years! What a waste of that child's time when they should be stimulating their mind in other ways and not forcing her into taking maths A-Level! No respectable unis will look at her D and think, "let's accept her" even if they take pity on her age when she took it.
What a waste of time!
Hoofbeat
"A schoolgirl from London has become one of the youngest to pass an A-level examination.
Anne-Marie Imafidon gained an E in her computing A-level and a grade D in her maths AS-level - both taken when she was 11." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1494503.stm)
Her teachers believe that she is bright, but clearly if she was intelligent (already) she would have got higher than an E! Seriously, what was the point in taking the exam early, if you're so clever and could get a much higher grade in a few more years! What a waste of that child's time when they should be stimulating their mind in other ways and not forcing her into taking maths A-Level! No respectable unis will look at her D and think, "let's accept her" even if they take pity on her age when she took it.
What a waste of time!
"A schoolgirl from London has become one of the youngest to pass an A-level examination.
Anne-Marie Imafidon gained an E in her computing A-level and a grade D in her maths AS-level - both taken when she was 11." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/1494503.stm)
Her teachers believe that she is bright, but clearly if she was intelligent (already) she would have got higher than an E! Seriously, what was the point in taking the exam early, if you're so clever and could get a much higher grade in a few more years! What a waste of that child's time when they should be stimulating their mind in other ways and not forcing her into taking maths A-Level! No respectable unis will look at her D and think, "let's accept her" even if they take pity on her age when she took it.
What a waste of time!
Yes, I read about her. I thought the saddest thing was her disappointment with her results. She should have just enjoyed being a child and saved A-levels for a few years time, when she would have done much better anyway.
And I didn't think that this was very nice either:
She has a nine-year-old sister who teachers believe is even brighter
Anne-Marie's father
Poor girls!
Well Ruth Lawrence judging by the last line doesnt regret it
http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newDisplayURN=200207220010
Ruth Lawrence
Ruth Lawrence was the archetypal maths prodigy. She passed O-level maths aged eight and became the youngest Oxford graduate at 13 - first-class honours, of course. Professorship came at the tender age of 19.
As a young student, she was accompanied at university by her domineering father, Harry, who had pushed her to academic success in the first place. She later became estranged from him.
Today, Professor Lawrence-Naimark, as she is now known, is associate professor of mathematics at the Hebrew University in Israel. She lives with her husband, Ariyeh Naimark, 29 years her senior and also a mathematician. They have two young children, Yehuda and Sarah.
Ruth is pleased to have had a head start in life: "It makes bringing up a family easier," she says, "as I already have an established career." She doesn't feel she has made any really big discoveries yet. But she has apparently contributed to important work on the mathematical structure of Jones-Witten invariants of three-dimensional manifolds, which is more than most people can say. Her advice to young geniuses: "Go for it!"
http://www.newstatesman.co.uk/site.php3?newTemplate=NSArticle_NS&newDisplayURN=200207220010
Ruth Lawrence
Ruth Lawrence was the archetypal maths prodigy. She passed O-level maths aged eight and became the youngest Oxford graduate at 13 - first-class honours, of course. Professorship came at the tender age of 19.
As a young student, she was accompanied at university by her domineering father, Harry, who had pushed her to academic success in the first place. She later became estranged from him.
Today, Professor Lawrence-Naimark, as she is now known, is associate professor of mathematics at the Hebrew University in Israel. She lives with her husband, Ariyeh Naimark, 29 years her senior and also a mathematician. They have two young children, Yehuda and Sarah.
Ruth is pleased to have had a head start in life: "It makes bringing up a family easier," she says, "as I already have an established career." She doesn't feel she has made any really big discoveries yet. But she has apparently contributed to important work on the mathematical structure of Jones-Witten invariants of three-dimensional manifolds, which is more than most people can say. Her advice to young geniuses: "Go for it!"
viviki
Well Ruth Lawrence judging by the last line doesnt regret it
She does not fully know of a kid's and uni lives, which other people lead/ have led/ will lead. She cannot possibly comment, advising others to do the same. I personally think that a person with no life in their early teens is equivalent to an empty space. She is over 30 now (33, 34?) and what great mathematical discovery has she done? Hardy in his A mathematician's apology talks about the prime age for Mathematicians (Paragraph 4)
As an example, he brings up:
" Galois died at twenty-one, Abel at twenty-seven, Ramanujan at thirty-three, Riemann at forty. "
When talking about the prime age, he says that hardly anything is done after 40 and " I do not know an instance of a major mathematical advance initiated by a man past fifty. "
Thinking about recent work in the mathematical world, we have:
Andrew Wiles proved Fermat's Last theorem at 41.
The only notable exclusion has to be Louis de Branges, who proved the Biernbach conjecture at 55 and came very close to the Riemann hypothesis later on.
Yannis
She does not fully know of a kid's and uni lives, which other people lead/ have led/ will lead. She cannot possibly comment, advising others to do the same. I personally think that a person with no life in their early teens is equivalent to an empty space.
Exactly. It is not really an existence that should be promoted to children. Even if she has no regrets about her upbringing, she is certainly in the minority. Many people who have had similar upbringings regret it.
But does she regret it?
Read this:
http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:62485928&dtype=0~0&dinst=&author=Nicol%2C%20Mark%20Wright%2C%20Simon&title=Interview%3A%20Ruth%20Lawrence%20-%20I%20will%20not%20put%20my%20son%20through%20the%20hothouse%20training%20used%20to%20get%20me%20into%20Oxford%20when%20I%20was%20only%2012.%20I%20want%20my%20Yehuda%20to%20have%20a%20childhood%2C%20not%20be%20forced%20to%20be%20different%3B%20RUTH%20LAWRENCE%20ON%20THE...&date=06/04/2000&refid=ency_topnm
Yannis
She does not fully know of a kid's and uni lives, which other people lead/ have led/ will lead. She cannot possibly comment, advising others to do the same. I personally think that a person with no life in their early teens is equivalent to an empty space. She is over 30 now (33, 34?) and what great mathematical discovery has she done? Hardy in his A mathematician's apology talks about the prime age for Mathematicians (Paragraph 4)
As an example, he brings up:
" Galois died at twenty-one, Abel at twenty-seven, Ramanujan at thirty-three, Riemann at forty. "
When talking about the prime age, he says that hardly anything is done after 40 and " I do not know an instance of a major mathematical advance initiated by a man past fifty. "
Thinking about recent work in the mathematical world, we have:
Andrew Wiles proved Fermat's Last theorem at 41.
The only notable exclusion has to be Louis de Branges, who proved the Biernbach conjecture at 55 and came very close to the Riemann hypothesis later on.
As an example, he brings up:
" Galois died at twenty-one, Abel at twenty-seven, Ramanujan at thirty-three, Riemann at forty. "
When talking about the prime age, he says that hardly anything is done after 40 and " I do not know an instance of a major mathematical advance initiated by a man past fifty. "
Thinking about recent work in the mathematical world, we have:
Andrew Wiles proved Fermat's Last theorem at 41.
The only notable exclusion has to be Louis de Branges, who proved the Biernbach conjecture at 55 and came very close to the Riemann hypothesis later on.
How are you anymore fit to judge than her.?If you've never experienced such academic study at an early age how do you know it isnt beneficial. She is basing her advice on her experience which is all anyone can do.
"She had no childhood girlfriends, and she didn't spend a lot of time playing
on the street. But she was happy: "The moment people heard that I was the
girl mathematician they straight away looked at me like an odd bird. The
equation was mathematics = strange. People wanted to know if I had
girlfriends of my age, if I did things that children of may age usually do,
what it was like to be a child prodigy. They never asked me what my research
was about. But it didn't bother me."
Asked if she ever felt alone, Lawrence-Naimark answered: "Not in the least.
I had a sister, and my father and mother were with me, and I had
mathematician friends. I wasn't alone. I was very focused on what I was
doing. The attention of the press wasn't always pleasant, but it had its
advantages, too. For example, in the train, the ticket-taker let me go into
the conductor's cabin and I even got to blow the horn. My life was rich in
experiences.
"When I studied at Oxford I began to take an interest in philosophy. I was
especially interested in the question of how human consciousness worked, how
on the one hand, there was free will, yet on the other hand, we are the
result of the action of molecules. I found no answer to that question."
She completed her doctoral thesis at the age of 17 and moved to Harvard to
do a post-doctorate. Then she went to the University of Michigan and became
an Orthodox Jew.
"The more I thought about the unity that exists in the world, the more
religious I became," she explains. "Mathematics also played a part in this.
Thanks to mathematics, I was aware of the unity and I reached the conclusion
that there is a logic that underlies creation. And when I saw how beautiful
mathematics is, I was obliged to reach the conclusion that there are
fingerprints behind it. Nowadays, when I am engaged in mathematics, I feel
that I am coming near to God."
Three years ago, when she was 26, she received a scholarship and came to the
Einstein Institute of Mathematics in Jerusalem. She married an Israeli
mathematician, Avi Naimark. They do not usually talk math at home, "though
it's not that the subject is taboo. It's just that there are other subjects
of conversation. When I met him, I didn't even know he was a mathematician."
Today, she is the mother of a 14-month-old boy and in an advanced state of
pregnancy."
Again doesnt sound as if she is particularly regretful to me that type of life obviously suited her.
on the street. But she was happy: "The moment people heard that I was the
girl mathematician they straight away looked at me like an odd bird. The
equation was mathematics = strange. People wanted to know if I had
girlfriends of my age, if I did things that children of may age usually do,
what it was like to be a child prodigy. They never asked me what my research
was about. But it didn't bother me."
Asked if she ever felt alone, Lawrence-Naimark answered: "Not in the least.
I had a sister, and my father and mother were with me, and I had
mathematician friends. I wasn't alone. I was very focused on what I was
doing. The attention of the press wasn't always pleasant, but it had its
advantages, too. For example, in the train, the ticket-taker let me go into
the conductor's cabin and I even got to blow the horn. My life was rich in
experiences.
"When I studied at Oxford I began to take an interest in philosophy. I was
especially interested in the question of how human consciousness worked, how
on the one hand, there was free will, yet on the other hand, we are the
result of the action of molecules. I found no answer to that question."
She completed her doctoral thesis at the age of 17 and moved to Harvard to
do a post-doctorate. Then she went to the University of Michigan and became
an Orthodox Jew.
"The more I thought about the unity that exists in the world, the more
religious I became," she explains. "Mathematics also played a part in this.
Thanks to mathematics, I was aware of the unity and I reached the conclusion
that there is a logic that underlies creation. And when I saw how beautiful
mathematics is, I was obliged to reach the conclusion that there are
fingerprints behind it. Nowadays, when I am engaged in mathematics, I feel
that I am coming near to God."
Three years ago, when she was 26, she received a scholarship and came to the
Einstein Institute of Mathematics in Jerusalem. She married an Israeli
mathematician, Avi Naimark. They do not usually talk math at home, "though
it's not that the subject is taboo. It's just that there are other subjects
of conversation. When I met him, I didn't even know he was a mathematician."
Today, she is the mother of a 14-month-old boy and in an advanced state of
pregnancy."
Again doesnt sound as if she is particularly regretful to me that type of life obviously suited her.
viviki
"She had no childhood girlfriends, and she didn't spend a lot of time playing
on the street. But she was happy: "The moment people heard that I was the
girl mathematician they straight away looked at me like an odd bird. The
equation was mathematics = strange. People wanted to know if I had
girlfriends of my age, if I did things that children of may age usually do,
what it was like to be a child prodigy. They never asked me what my research
was about. But it didn't bother me."
Asked if she ever felt alone, Lawrence-Naimark answered: "Not in the least.
I had a sister, and my father and mother were with me, and I had
mathematician friends. I wasn't alone. I was very focused on what I was
doing. The attention of the press wasn't always pleasant, but it had its
advantages, too. For example, in the train, the ticket-taker let me go into
the conductor's cabin and I even got to blow the horn. My life was rich in
experiences.
"When I studied at Oxford I began to take an interest in philosophy. I was
especially interested in the question of how human consciousness worked, how
on the one hand, there was free will, yet on the other hand, we are the
result of the action of molecules. I found no answer to that question."
She completed her doctoral thesis at the age of 17 and moved to Harvard to
do a post-doctorate. Then she went to the University of Michigan and became
an Orthodox Jew.
"The more I thought about the unity that exists in the world, the more
religious I became," she explains. "Mathematics also played a part in this.
Thanks to mathematics, I was aware of the unity and I reached the conclusion
that there is a logic that underlies creation. And when I saw how beautiful
mathematics is, I was obliged to reach the conclusion that there are
fingerprints behind it. Nowadays, when I am engaged in mathematics, I feel
that I am coming near to God."
Three years ago, when she was 26, she received a scholarship and came to the
Einstein Institute of Mathematics in Jerusalem. She married an Israeli
mathematician, Avi Naimark. They do not usually talk math at home, "though
it's not that the subject is taboo. It's just that there are other subjects
of conversation. When I met him, I didn't even know he was a mathematician."
Today, she is the mother of a 14-month-old boy and in an advanced state of
pregnancy."
Again doesnt sound as if she is particularly regretful to me that type of life obviously suited her.
on the street. But she was happy: "The moment people heard that I was the
girl mathematician they straight away looked at me like an odd bird. The
equation was mathematics = strange. People wanted to know if I had
girlfriends of my age, if I did things that children of may age usually do,
what it was like to be a child prodigy. They never asked me what my research
was about. But it didn't bother me."
Asked if she ever felt alone, Lawrence-Naimark answered: "Not in the least.
I had a sister, and my father and mother were with me, and I had
mathematician friends. I wasn't alone. I was very focused on what I was
doing. The attention of the press wasn't always pleasant, but it had its
advantages, too. For example, in the train, the ticket-taker let me go into
the conductor's cabin and I even got to blow the horn. My life was rich in
experiences.
"When I studied at Oxford I began to take an interest in philosophy. I was
especially interested in the question of how human consciousness worked, how
on the one hand, there was free will, yet on the other hand, we are the
result of the action of molecules. I found no answer to that question."
She completed her doctoral thesis at the age of 17 and moved to Harvard to
do a post-doctorate. Then she went to the University of Michigan and became
an Orthodox Jew.
"The more I thought about the unity that exists in the world, the more
religious I became," she explains. "Mathematics also played a part in this.
Thanks to mathematics, I was aware of the unity and I reached the conclusion
that there is a logic that underlies creation. And when I saw how beautiful
mathematics is, I was obliged to reach the conclusion that there are
fingerprints behind it. Nowadays, when I am engaged in mathematics, I feel
that I am coming near to God."
Three years ago, when she was 26, she received a scholarship and came to the
Einstein Institute of Mathematics in Jerusalem. She married an Israeli
mathematician, Avi Naimark. They do not usually talk math at home, "though
it's not that the subject is taboo. It's just that there are other subjects
of conversation. When I met him, I didn't even know he was a mathematician."
Today, she is the mother of a 14-month-old boy and in an advanced state of
pregnancy."
Again doesnt sound as if she is particularly regretful to me that type of life obviously suited her.
I hadn't read that before, but I am glad that she is happy. I suppose that it is very hard to understand the lives of others without comparing them to your own experiences. It is good to hear a positive story. This is why I voted on the poll under 'sometimes' - as I think that how you cope/ whether going to uni early benefits you or not depends on the type of person you are. As you said, her upbringing obviously suited her. However, as others have mentioned, it is possible that if she had been brought up differently she would have had a different view.
Jools
I know her, she's doing very well for herself now. But no way should a "child prodigy", or anyone, be forced into extreme levels of studying at the expense of being deprived of a normal childhood.
I agree in the sense that the childs needs should come first, but not all children are normal. Some children that are extremely gifted arent going to want a normal childhood and I think it could be just as detrimental for them to be forced into having the stereotypical childhood. However no child should be forced into studying to an extreme level if thats not what they are happy with.
Jools
I know her, she's doing very well for herself now. But no way should a "child prodigy", or anyone, be forced into extreme levels of studying at the expense of being deprived of a normal childhood.
You're right. Naturally intelligent people will do well whenever they go to university. Children should be allowed to enjoy their childhood.
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