Are you voting for Ukip?

leinad2012

Could we stop the whole "give away" £50mil a day. We don't give it away at all, there a clear, tangible financial benefits that you get in return

Reply 201

Imrightyourleft

1

Original post by leinad2012

Could we stop the whole "give away" £50mil a day. We don't give it away at all, there a clear, tangible financial benefits that you get in return

If you gave me £20, and in return I gave you back a £10 Marks & Spencer voucher that you never even asked for, would you think that's good value for money? That's the situation we're in with the EU. We provide them with a £50 million per day membership fee, and in return we can't even decide ourselves what little proportion we receive back is spent on.

Also, name me some of these "tangible financial benefits"...?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 202

leinad2012

15

Original post by Imrightyourleft

If you gave me £20, and in return I gave you back a £10 Marks & Spencer voucher that you never even asked for, would you think that's good value for money? That's the situation we're in with the EU. We provide them with a £50 million per day membership fee, and in return we can't even decide ourselves what little proportion we receive back is spent on.

Also, name me some of these "tangible financial benefits"...?

This is the big issue with UKIP, they try to dumb things down to a level that their supporters can understand, you don't simply put the money in and get a specific amount back. Your analogy is completely redundant in this situation.

Want some examples, fine, take the Common Agriculture Plan (CAP) which ensures the stability of thousands of farms in the UK, where over 55bn Euros has been given/ projected to be given to UK farmers from 2007-2020, around £3.5bn per year (in today's Euro to pound exchange it would work out at £3.06bn pa but considering how weak the Euro is atm (as weak as it's ever been really) that compared to where it has been over the last 5 years it's fair to say the actual exchange and actual amount so far is significantly higher). So in 1 policy that's already more than 20% of our fee that we get back, without even considering the improved prices that we get in stores, plus the stability for farmers which is especially needed considering the monopsony power that supermarkets have over the agriculture industry, although that power is gradually falling.

Then there are the countless other benefits that are more difficult to measure, the fact that businesses will invest in the UK due to its' exposure to the largest market in the world. The UK has the 5th highest FDI levels in the world, which is pretty astounding considering how small we are as a country. This isn't a coincidence, it's partly down to us already having the skills in place, but more the fact that companies know they will have access to European markets to sell their goods (hence why in the referendum debate HUGE companies came out publicly and said they would lower investment in the UK or move head offices out of the UK if it were to leave the EU).
Take Nissan investing £250mil alone setting up factories in the UK. Or Rolls Royce. Or Jaguar just to focus on the car manufacturing industries. Combined these investments not only account for investments in the bn's, but think about the knock-on effects of the jobs created. Basic economics, multiplier effect, if you invest the initial, say £2bn (which is definitely an underestimate), and also create 10,000 jobs at £25,000 (again probably an underestimate), that's an extra £250mil in wages for British workers. And the figures overall for this are DEFINITELY higher.

All of these things are directly affected by the EU.

Aside from that, even if it was better in the long-term to leave the EU, why do it now? When we are recovering we are by no means in a strong position, leaving now would cause a HUGE amount of uncertainty and would more than likely **** the exchange rate, whilst making companies postpone investment plans. It makes no logical sense at all.

There are issues in the EU, I'm not going to deny that, there are nations in it that never should have been allowed in. The EU definitely needs to transform and hopefully with the UK being THE major recovering nation in the EU, what we say will have some clout when negotiating. A tiered system with different degrees of freedom in each tier would be the ideal solution although I can't see that happening any time soon. But by leaving you stop yourself from having a say in what happens in your biggest export market, that's idiocy.

Reply 203

Sam280297

14

Original post by leinad2012

I actually have looked at their policies, every single one (because whilst I don't like them I want my opinion to be informed) and there are clear faults long term and short term faults in their plans, a ridiculous number of "popularity policies" which are irrelevant or will cost us money for little return and some very poorly thought out policies.

They do have a one or two policies that I like, such as creating a new tax bracket of 35% but other than that a large number are poorly thought.

Unfortunately I've got a lot of uni work ATM so won't be able to post what I think in wrong with their policies until the weekend, which is why I haven't replied to he previous poster yet.

Out of interest what other policies do they have (not just popularity ones like giving all soldiers "national service medals", actual important ones that conflict with the main parties) that you agree with?

There's plenty of policies I agree with.
Reintroduction of Grammar Schools
Using money from leaving the EU to better fund vital services such as the NHS
Cutting foreign aid
Abolishing PFI's
Scrapping HS2
Introducing the 35p tax rate
An Australian points based system
Just to name a few

Reply 204

leinad2012

15

Original post by Sam280297

There's plenty of policies I agree with.
Reintroduction of Grammar Schools
Using money from leaving the EU to better fund vital services such as the NHS
Cutting foreign aid
Abolishing PFI's
Scrapping HS2
Introducing the 35p tax rate
An Australian points based system
Just to name a few

Grammar schools is a popularity policy, having looked into it a lot of their plans on this is to basically reclassify "oustanding" rated state schools from state schools to grammar schools. Other than that I don't think much changes for the school itself, other than maybe it being allowed to have entry exams (which would surely be a negative thing, local school places lost right?)

They believe there will be a net save of £9bn from leaving the EU, which either means they have their figures wrong, or that they aren't planning to finance all of the things that the our EU membership currently pays for (such as CAP). More than likely they would be forced to subsidise corporations investment to persuade them to stay in the UK (and to do that to a meaningful degree I would guess that you wouldn't be allowed MFN status as you would be breaking WTO free trade/ protectionist legislation).

Cutting foreign aid is a tough one, I'm on the fence, I think it needs to be lowered but UKIP don't seem to realise the importance of maintaining working relationships with nations like India and China (where our export share is increasing drastically). Farage is hardly the master of international relations is he?

PFI's again is a tough one, there has been clear issue with them in the past (the Olympic Games security flop comes to mind), but on the whole they make sense, why would you create government sectors to do all the manufacturing work when there are much more efficient companies who have the expertise to do it cheaper, quicker and to a higher standard. The issue comes from the bidding process, but it does need looking at, abolishing it would be nigh on impossible.

Again, on the fence with HS2, we need improved rail links but HS2 doesn't seem well thought out at all. That being said the economic cost of cancelling it now would be massive in terms of lost time/ finances etc.

35p tax rate seems like a good plan, actually giving back to the middle class, but how they would finance such a tax cut (around £800 per person who covers the entire threshold) hasn't been forthcoming.

We all seem to love the Ausies, but they are one of the most racist developed economies. It would be interesting to know how many people actually understand how the Australian immigration policy works.

Reply 205

democracyforum

4

Yes

Conservatives won't give a referendum, with or without "reform"

Reply 206

username1308602

1

Original post by CrapDunGoofed

That's a good thing. The government can't pay for all degrees. Why pay for stupid degrees like American studies or women's studies or w/e BS they have today.

I don't wholly disagree with you but I don't agree with you completely either. I think it's disappointing that those inclined to excel in the arts or who are really interested in something like American Studies will be discouraged from going to university, which is a pity. If education can't be completely free for all, the only area that I believe should have fees waived is in medicine.

Reply 207

spurs9393

13

Original post by Lionheart96

What makes a border a border?
Who decides where to draw an imaginary line?
If you were walking from france into spain, would you be a ble to tell when you crossed a border if there were no signs to indicate it?

For us, the 'border' is probably the 26 miles of water between us and France. Far from imaginary

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Reply 208

CharlieeB

1

Original post by saahil0987

Stop stereotyping? Like UKIP would do then?

Exactly so you're just as bad as them.

Reply 209

Farah_786

12

No.. I doubt ukip will win the elections anyway.

Reply 210

Kaleyelizabeth96

2

I vote for UKIP, not because I'm racist or have below average intelligence just because I believe Britian should have a referendum on the EU and they're the only party to offer it. The party isn't a 'racist' party, obviously there are members that may be racist but I'm sure a lot of the other parties have some of those too. Also Nigel Farage is the only leader that can actually tell people where he will get the budget for things from (the 55m a day savings from leaving the EU). Where as all the others will just create more taxes and cuts that they haven't decided to tell the public yet...

Reply 211

youarenot

4

Original post by Kaleyelizabeth96

I vote for UKIP, not because I'm racist or have below average intelligence just because I believe Britian should have a referendum on the EU and they're the only party to offer it.

But the only party offering a Referendum on EU Membership is the Conservatives???? UKIP are proposing just straight up leaving?

Reply 212

Kaleyelizabeth96

2

Original post by youarenot

But the only party offering a Referendum on EU Membership is the Conservatives???? UKIP are proposing just straight up leaving?

The conservatives promised a referendum in the last election but never gave one, so no doubt it'll be the same this time around. If you listened to the debate last night Nigel Farage actually said about giving the UK a referendum, yes the party wants to come out of the EU but they also want the opportunity for the public to have some decision?

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Reply 213

youarenot

4

Original post by Kaleyelizabeth96

The conservatives promised a referendum in the last election but never gave one, so no doubt it'll be the same this time around. If you listened to the debate last night Nigel Farage actually said about giving the UK a referendum, yes the party wants to come out of the EU but they also want the opportunity for the public to have some decision?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Yes, they went into coalition with the most Pro-EU party, of course they were going to have to sacrifice the EU Referendum Policy.

I myself am Pro-EU, but if you really want an EU Referendum you might as well vote Tory because the biased voting system means UKIP will not get a sausage of power, and any seats they get will be as good as giving seats to Miliband.

Reply 214

Nickbonista

3

Original post by youarenot

Yes, they went into coalition with the most Pro-EU party, of course they were going to have to sacrifice the EU Referendum Policy.

I myself am Pro-EU, but if you really want an EU Referendum you might as well vote Tory because the biased voting system means UKIP will not get a sausage of power, and any seats they get will be as good as giving seats to Miliband.

So you're saying that an mp that will support a party offering a proper referendum is equivalent to an mp that will not support any kind of referendum??

Reply 215

SophieBarlow87

9

Original post by spurs9393

The facts clearly show that immigration is becoming a problem. How is it not worrying that half a billion people have an absolute right to enter the country without us being able to do anything about it? Just look around you and you'll see how immigration is becoming a problem

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are you forgetting that British people are living abroad as well? Immigration isn't even the biggest cause of our population growing.

Reply 216

Nickbonista

3

Original post by SophieBarlow87

are you forgetting that British people are living abroad as well? Immigration isn't even the biggest cause of our population growing.

British people living abroad has no relevance to any debate about immigration, unless you're suggesting they'll be deported if we leave the EU, which is ridiculous. Net migration is the biggest cause of population growth not just because of the net influx of people, but because many migrants from the Indian subcontinent have such high fertility rates when they stay here, meaning the natural increase as well as migration is increased.

Reply 217

username1528889

13

It appears as though UKIP feed of provocative statements/policies that are intended to get a response, and ultimately highlight the flaws in other parties actions/manifestos.

As with British politics being in the state that it is in, going 'against the norm' may prove to be extremely beneficial, encouraging awareness for a party and backing for a leader. Farage has played the electorate well, and has encouraged disputes amongst the electorate and opposing parties by 'putting it how it is' . I wouldn't vote for UKIP personally, regardless of the fact that they're extremely popular in my constituency. In fact, i'm finding it incredibly hard to make up my mind as to who i'm voting for, simply because i disagree with fair-weather policies and publicity stunts aimed at swaying the electorate.

I didn't manage to catch the debate last night, but i did watch a glimpse of it on the BBC website. The Sturgeon-Farage debate over migration supports my argument. It is only when clear facts are presented to negate the statements made by Farage that he quietens down, shakes his head and accepts defeat.

In my opinion, it's all a game.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 218

SophieBarlow87

9

Original post by Nickbonista

British people living abroad has no relevance to any debate about immigration, unless you're suggesting they'll be deported if we leave the EU, which is ridiculous. Net migration is the biggest cause of population growth not just because of the net influx of people, but because many migrants from the Indian subcontinent have such high fertility rates when they stay here, meaning the natural increase as well as migration is increased.

No what I mean there are as many grits living abroad as there are non brits living here

Reply 219

Nickbonista

3

Original post by SophieBarlow87

No what I mean there are as many grits living abroad as there are non brits living here

Well net migration has always been positive (more people coming in than leaving), so any relevance that may have is therefore rubbished. This year 300,000 more people came in than left.

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