How to remove medical students arrogance?

Not one of those is famous for treating sick people, they're famous for doing scientific research. Ironically, for being biochemists, rather than doctors (obviously I know in reality most of them were also doctors).

And you're right, I do live in blissful ignorance of most of those, as does the vast majority of people. They might have done spectacular things, but they aren't attributed the same public recognition as equally important war leaders or astrophysicists. I never said it was a good thing, but its a decent way of deflating the arrogance of people who think they're important: the general public likely won't know their names in 100 years even if they cure cancer.

Copper, just stop while you are ahead. Doctors do research all the time, Alain Cribier, invented the TAVI in 2002, a minimally invasive aortic valve replacement procedure. Andreas Gruentzig invented and performed the first PCI in 1977. This procedure has saved thousands of lives and is saving lives every day. I don't think Andreas Gruentzig loses a night of sleep over the fact that he isn't a household name, he is just satisfied he invented a procedure that has dramatically improved heart attack survival among patients. Its not just Gruentzig as well, he may have done the first procedure but the procedure has been improved countless times over the years by thousands of people, doctors and biomedical engineers. The stent was later developed improving mortality rates, followed by the drug-eluting stent and now bioabsorbable stents. All these advancements required dozens of trials, a lot of thinking and a lot of testing and inventing by engineers to come to fruition. Most of people who do great things aren't household names precisely because the things they invented are so advanced that most people won't have heard of them while learning it in school. The reason Newton, Edison, Graham Bell are household names is because their inventions are simple to explain and taught to students around the world. Newton's laws of physics are so basic and early that most people will have heard of them, but the latest developments in physics, while great are not going to be taught to anyone in grade school and so they will remain unknown to most.

Medical procedures are improved all the time and developed all the time. Most of the doctors listed did research as well and that is 100% normal. Medicine is one of the few fields where such a high percentage of people actually are involved with improving healthcare. For most jobs, people do work everyday but don't improve the system. It is a field for both doers and thinkers.

For more general proof, all the surgeries invented in this world were invented by doctors, Joseph Lister invented antisepsis in surgery, dentists invented anesthesia. Several medications were invented by doctors as well including Joseph Black, beta blockers and H2 blockers. Of course most medications these days are invented by scientists and researchers like statins for example, but my point is doctors do all sorts of work for this world.

By comparison, most politicians don't ever get anywhere near the top office, most politics students don't even go into politics and in my opinion, that is a good thing. Most people who care about the here and now know that politicians just tell you what you want to hear so they can get votes, aka they are willing to lie to you just to get elected, not someone you would have a beer with is my guess. Its no wonder polticians are one of the least respected professions along with car salesmen and telemarketers.

but the latest developments in physics, while great are not going to be taught to anyone in grade school and so they will remain unknown to most.

FFS, I don't know why you are arguing with me, I know all of this, but NONE of it is relevant to the thread! Doctors are wonderful supertalented people who fix all the problems of the world, OK, I said it, happy? But they aren't the divine entities that some arrogant medical students think they are and if you are getting annoyed by such an arrogant medical student its useful to point that out. That is all I am saying.



Not true, many people have heard of Peter Higgs and Stephen Hawking and Einstein and their discoveries are pretty difficult to explain.

And as for your diatribe on politicians, that's the height of ignorance and clearly not true or relevant, but like the rest of your post, totally irrelevant to this thread.

Tell them the obvious: nobody ever changed world history or achieved public recognition by being a doctor.

You started it by saying so of course people are going to counter your argument.
And the vast majority of medical students go into medicine to make a difference to the small number of patients that they will treat. They don't go into it to be famous or be in the public eye. The just want to try and make some people's lives better.

You're always going to get some arrogant people when you have large amount of hard working and intelligent people. Its not just medical students that can be arrogant. I don't see why there needs to be a thread to put a stop to a personality trait.

How many times do I have to say it? This thread is about the minority of medical students who think they as medics are better than people doing non-vocational degrees and how to counter their arguments. It has nothing to do with why the majority of medical students go into medicine, nor do any of my suggested counters represent my real view on doctors.



Because it's not just a personality trait, its a widely recognised phenomenon that is largely peculiar to medics (possibly also lawyers and science students to a lesser extent). At KCL, we have separate sports teams for medics and non-medics, and every time there is a sports event, we are subjected to chants of 'you'll never get a job' and 'mickey mouse'. It's not just a couple of arrogant people, its a general trope among certain types of medical students. The same thing happens when Manchester plays Manchester met, or when someone from Glasgow uni meets someone from Starthclyde, or any other situation when a presitigious institution meets a less prestigious one, and these phenomena all should and do have threads about them. But this is a thread about medics (the minority who genuinely believe these things and repeat them outside of a macho context like a sporting event).

x.

All true points that i've experienced.


See the above and respond, he blows your points out of the water.

How many times do I have to say it? This thread is about the minority of medical students who think they as medics are better than people doing non-vocational degrees and how to counter their arguments. It has nothing to do with why the majority of medical students go into medicine, nor do any of my suggested counters represent my real view on doctors.



Because it's not just a personality trait, its a widely recognised phenomenon that is largely peculiar to medics (possibly also lawyers and science students to a lesser extent). At KCL, we have separate sports teams for medics and non-medics, and every time there is a sports event, we are subjected to chants of 'you'll never get a job' and 'mickey mouse'. It's not just a couple of arrogant people, its a general trope among certain types of medical students. The same thing happens when Manchester plays Manchester met, or when someone from Glasgow uni meets someone from Starthclyde, or any other situation when a presitigious institution meets a less prestigious one, and these phenomena all should and do have threads about them. But this is a thread about medics (the minority who genuinely believe these things and repeat them outside of a macho context like a sporting event).

Remind them they cock up and get sued (or did until Friday)?

Though so do we and we're much, much more arrogant on average ime.

What changed on Friday?

Court fees increased massively. Now if you want to sue someone for 50k it's 2.5k, 100k it's 5k, 200k it's 10k.

For most victims of negligence it's simply too expensive to issue a claim against the NHS.

Medical students have every right to be arrogant because
1) The selection process for medical school allows only the best of the best through.
2) They are in a position of responsibility (which is why they are accountable to the gmc for their behaviour). If a medical student misses a lecture, it could mean the different between a life being saved and a death. Normal students can bum off as much as they like with little consequence.
3) overall they work harder than any other student (hence why med students have their own Union and sports teams, they are too busy to be involved with the societies of people doing normal degrees!)
4) you have to have a certain degree of self confidence to be able to function in such a high pressure environment, particularly in the later years of medical school and once you graduate. If not you would be indecisive and require constant reassurance, which doesn't make for a good doctor.

No one has the right to be arrogant

1. The selection process is very subjective and many candidates even with the best grades get rejected. Whos to say the 'failed medics' wouldnt have made better doctors?

2. So are Dentists (GDC), pharmacists (GPhC) and optometrists (GOC). You cant just make a sweeping statement like that.

3. No proof that they work harder than other students. Other degrees like engineering and maths and other science based degrees are hard and require a lot of work. Having an own sports team doesnt make u better than a normal student LOL

4. again only med students do not just have self confidence. Others do too

To everyone arguing they should be 'allowed to be arrogant'...

Did it ever occur to you that there's nothing about being born into privilege, be it having excellent parents or minted parents that entitles you to be arrogant. These are the predictors of someone doing well in life. These are the predictors of someone heading into a profession where they aren't held back by anything.

I cannot understand why you would want to go into a profession where you take it upon yourself to help others. To nurture people from all walks of society back to health. Why on earth would you want to be arrogant when you see people suffering as a result of deprivation they were born into. You should be humbled because you had opportunities that they didn't. And don't give me 'oh not everyone in the profession is privileged' well I can bet that the disadvantaged are a drop in the ocean in the form of an access course.

More to the point have you looked up a definition of arrogance, is that really who you want to be?

I agree with what you're saying in regards to "being allowed to be arrogant". Arrogance is inherently negative and has no place within medicine. Similarly, I disagree with anyone who says that medical students have earned the right to be arrogant.

But I do disagree with you labelling medical students as being such because they are 'privileged'. Yes, we are all privileged in the sense that we don't live in a favela outside of Rio. But not all medical students are ex-private school kids who have been coached their entire lives.

Personally, I'm the first person in my family to get a-levels, let alone an undergraduate degree and medical degree. I went to a state comprehensive where most of the kids ended up pulling pints and working in sainsburys. I worked various part-time jobs throughout my education to fund my costs while parents actively disuaded me from going to university.

I would rather attribute my profession to the fact that I've worked damn hard as opposed to some omipotent force of 'privilege' that has selected me from beyond the void.

Yep, no one has the right to be arrogant, and no one should be looked down on either.

1. Definitely true !!

2. Ermmm.....with the exception of Dentists, Doctors will have ultimate responsibility for the life of a patient, and if it is a life/death scenario, then almost always a doc has to be responsible, IMO.

3. Exactly, but it can vary from person to person though. An engineering student might not find medicine easy and vice versa. For some reason, having different sports teams, libraries etc. for Medical students does seem to be a global phenomenon. In some countries they are even made to stay away from students studying other subjects, and kept segregated.

4. Yeah, you need self confidence in every profession.

Personally, I think Medical students are just like anyone else. There are arrogant people everywhere, in every profession and not just limited to Medicine. This thread should in fact be renamed. It gives a wrong impression about the thousands of good medical students out there who are studying it genuinely for their passion and the vocation of duty of care to the society.

This

I dont understand why they are given this option in the first place. Once the institution puts them on a higher pedestal for no reason, the arrogant attitude comes through anyway. And why cant they interact with students from other courses and socialise and play sorts with them.( We dont have leprosy btw ) Once they are doctors they will have to see patients from all walks of lifes and different social classes, if they cant get used to at Uni how they gonna continue that in later life.

Sigh. This is why we can't have nice things.

Firstly...many medical schools pre-date their parent universities. So you might think they're being really snobby by having separate campuses etc, but in actual fact they were there first. In some cases, centuries before the main university was founded.

As for why we have separate sports teams...how about because when your sports team meets on Wednesday afternoons (which you have off every week), I'm on placement at some far flung hospital and not back home until 7PM? Or when you're on a three month summer holiday in the middle of July, we're still on placement?

You might not have leprosy, but your arrogance and smugness really irritates.

(Oh and btw, I have a non-medical undergraduate degree so I actually know what things look like from the other side too, before you assume that I don't).