The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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KingStannis
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#3981
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#3981
(Original post by Aph)
What??? Behaviour not ideology? The left tend to belive that people should do what they want and should have the money they need to do so.
the right tend to belive that people should be allowed to be used by others ect. But they belive in harsh punishme
nt.

I think you are trying to simplify this too much or just debating for the sake of it. I could be right for education but left for crime for instance.
How can you make those comments is bold and then in the same post accuse me of oversimplifying?

You do not seem to disagree with me on what a right winged economy would be vs a left one. So why not apply that to everything else?

What those one the left and right "tend to" believe is neither here nor there' left vs right isn't necessarily defined by those tendencies. If every left winger was left handed, that wouldn't make left wing politics defined by being left handed now would it?
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RayApparently
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#3982
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#3982
(Original post by KingStannis)
Under those definitions anyone can call themselves left wing. Plenty of right wingers believe in fairness. They think what is fair is giving people economic freedoms. Leftists believe what is fair is protecting people from the negative impacts of freedoms.

Niether example, a priori, can just be labelled "fair". The distinction between left and right comes from your notions of fairness, or what you believing in. From the left, it's reducing freedoms but increasing well being. For the right, it's increasing freedoms but knowing that as a result, there will be unfortunate "losers" in society.
But in the case of socially right and left the definition 'fair and equal' makes it obvious that the current definition for socially left is correct.
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tehFrance
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#3983
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#3983
Google search bar in firefox keeps leading me to Dutch Google.. WTF :lolwut:

I'd like my Google to not be in Dutch thank you! I hate the Dutch!
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Rakas21
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#3984
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#3984
(Original post by RayApparently)
But in the case of socially right and left the definition 'fair and equal' makes it obvious that the current definition for socially left is correct.
A much more simple way to assess whether somebody is of the right or left is to ask 'Do you believe in forced equality of outcome?'.
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RayApparently
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#3985
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#3985
(Original post by Rakas21)
A much more simple way to assess whether somebody is of the right or left is to ask 'Do you believe in forced equality of outcome?'.
A bit of bias inherent in the Q there. You'll find few people in my party who believe in total equality of outcome.
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Aph
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#3986
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#3986
(Original post by KingStannis)
How can you make those comments is bold and then in the same post accuse me of oversimplifying?

You do not seem to disagree with me on what a right winged economy would be vs a left one. So why not apply that to everything else?

What those one the left and right "tend to" believe is neither here nor there' left vs right isn't necessarily defined by those tendencies. If every left winger was left handed, that wouldn't make left wing politics defined by being left handed now would it?
We are all hypocrites

its because, right I guess I can see your logic but being liberal means that people are free to be who they are. You can belive that people should be free and that buisiness should be fair and regulated. Being authoritatian means that you paint everyone with the same brush so to speak. That if a person steps out of line they should be severely punished.

Being left and liberal means believing in the emancipation of the people from corporate interests put simply. but being right authoritatian means believing that everyone should be good little worker bees and seeing people as stock to be used and gotten rid of.
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Kittiara
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#3987
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#3987
(Original post by tehFrance)
Google search bar in firefox keeps leading me to Dutch Google.. WTF :lolwut:

I'd like my Google to not be in Dutch thank you! I hate the Dutch!
We're not that bad... :puppyeyes:
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KingStannis
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#3988
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#3988
(Original post by RayApparently)
But in the case of socially right and left the definition 'fair and equal' makes it obvious that the current definition for socially left is correct.
I'm not sure what this means.

I think you can have either right or left wing reasons for wanting something fair. Lets take the example of wanting equal rights for homosexuals. a left wing appeal is "It's the right thing to do, therefore we should intervene to make it happen". Note that the appeal does not define why it is right in the first place, it only describes how we should behave in relation to our principles. The right wing appeal is to do with the fact that their personal freedoms to shag other guys shouldn't be superseded by other people's freedom to dislike it.

Those are two fundamentally different ideological responses towards achieving the same "fair" state of affairs.
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Kittiara
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#3989
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#3989
(Original post by thehistorybore)
Presumably the mass PM goes out to all members of TSR? Yeah I can see that; I suppose it will be indicative of the RL election result to an extent. Without wishing to be rude, the RL Greens are, in my opinion, dangerous in the extreme. Their economic policies horrify me.
I think it will, yes. Also, I don't think it's rude to say that you don't agree with the RL Green Party's economic policies. I feel the same way about some of the Conservative policies, especially where they hurt the poorest and most vulnerable members of our society. But then, I don't agree with the RL Green Party on everything. And I know that there are Conservative members here who don't agree with all the Conservative policies, either.
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RayApparently
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#3990
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#3990
(Original post by KingStannis)
I'm not sure what this means.

I think you can have either right or left wing reasons for wanting something fair. Lets take the example of wanting equal rights for homosexuals. a left wing appeal is "It's the right thing to do, therefore we should intervene to make it happen". Note that the appeal does not define why it is right in the first place, it only describes how we should behave in relation to our principles. The right wing appeal is to do with the fact that their personal freedoms to shag other guys shouldn't be superseded by other people's freedom to dislike it.

Those are two fundamentally different ideological responses towards achieving the same "fair" state of affairs.
You think the left-wing is against personal freedoms?
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KingStannis
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#3991
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#3991
I think the only controversial consequence of what I'm saying is that the monarchy, dictatorships etc are inherently left winged. That poses a problem for how we see the political world, but it is the only way to make notions of left and right consistent.
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KingStannis
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#3992
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#3992
(Original post by RayApparently)
You think the left-wing is against personal freedoms?
If we're looking at the extremes, from which I am defining both sides of the spectrum yes. But when you move further along the line towards normal leftism and centre leftism then no. It's like how the model of a 100% free market economy doesn't reflect the beliefs of most capitalists. For example, we have laws etc. Equally, not all left winged people are communists.
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RayApparently
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#3993
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#3993
(Original post by KingStannis)
If we're looking at the extremes, from which I am defining both sides of the spectrum yes. But when you move further along the line towards normal leftism and centre leftism then no. It's like how the model of a 100% free market economy doesn't reflect the beliefs of most capitalists. For example, we have laws etc. Equally, not all left winged people are communists.
I'm starting to forget what your initial point was.

That personal liberty is a right wing concept? Of course it is. Libertarians and what not.
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Tanqueray91
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#3994
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#3994
(Original post by Kittiara)
I think it will, yes. Also, I don't think it's rude to say that you don't agree with the RL Green Party's economic policies. I feel the same way about some of the Conservative policies, especially where they hurt the poorest and most vulnerable members of our society. But then, I don't agree with the RL Green Party on everything. And I know that there are Conservative members here who don't agree with all the Conservative policies, either.
Haha, I love the Tories
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Jammy Duel
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#3995
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#3995
(Original post by Life_peer)
Third Reich?
Perfect!
There definitely aren't any negative implications there!
I also wouldn't try to push all sorts of racist, homophobic, anti-disabled etc policies because of the name, honest :fuhrer:

Posted from TSR Mobile
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KingStannis
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#3996
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#3996
(Original post by RayApparently)
I'm starting to forget what your initial point was.

That personal liberty is a right wing concept? Of course it is. Libertarians and what not.
My initial point was that the political compass was pointless because we can consistently apply left and right to the state as well as economics if we look at the principles of why an economic system is right, and why one is left, and apply these principles to the State. So you look at a classical capitalist economic system and find the rationale for it is freedom. Then you look at a left wing or even Keynesian system, and the rationale is intervention on behalf of some public good. Then, you can apply that to society and find that authoritarianism ( to whatever degree, I'm not just talking about dictatorships here) is left winged, and libertarianism (unsurprisingly) right winged.

This completely removes the need for the political compass's social distinction of "authoritative/libertarian left/right" thing, because the economic language of left and right should be applied to society. Otherwise there is no basis for left and right at all to apply to economics.

Some people may freak out at this reasoning though, because it yield surprising results, such as fascism being a left wing concept. This is the problem that the compass wants to solve, but i think that it doesn't have to be a problem. We just have to break the habit of subconsciously linking conservatism to the right, and follow the reasoning to its logical conclusion.
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RayApparently
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#3997
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#3997
(Original post by KingStannis)
My initial point was that the political compass was pointless because we can consistently apply left and right to the state as well as economics if we look at the principles of why an economic system is right, and why one is left, and apply these principles to the State. So you look at a classical capitalist economic system and find the rationale for it is freedom. Then you look at a left wing or even Keynesian system, and the rationale is intervention on behalf of some public good. Then, you can apply that to society and find that authoritarianism ( to whatever degree, I'm not just talking about dictatorships here) is left winged, and libertarianism (unsurprisingly) right winged.

This completely removes the need for the political compass's social distinction of "authoritative/libertarian left/right" thing, because the economic language of left and right should be applied to society. Otherwise there is no basis for left and right at all to apply to economics.

Some people may freak out at this reasoning though, because it yield surprising results, such as fascism being a left wing concept. This is the problem that the compass wants to solve, but i think that it doesn't have to be a problem. We just have to break the habit of subconsciously linking conservatism to the right, and follow the reasoning to its logical conclusion.
What you're describing is a issue of syntax not politics.
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KingStannis
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#3998
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#3998
(Original post by RayApparently)
What you're describing is a issue of syntax not politics.
I don't follow.
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RayApparently
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#3999
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#3999
(Original post by KingStannis)
I don't follow.
Wether you call it left or right it doesn't matter. Its just words. The compass removes the problem. The left tend to occupy the bottom left corner and the right the top right corner. What's wrong with that?
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Midnightmemories
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#4000
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#4000
Evening..
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