What is this political system called?

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flibber
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... where you can vote for the leader of your nation directly and separately from your vote for your local representative; it's used in France, for example. I know in America there's a gradually fading phenomenon called 'ticket-splitting' where you can vote for a presidential candidate from one party and the representative from another, but I want to know the general name for voting for a representative and leader separately, instead of the British system, in which you vote for an MP who essentially pledges to vote for his party leader as Prime Minister.

Would such a system work in the UK? Would it be more 'democratic' as the Prime Minister would be the person who has the most votes, not (as it currently stands) the majority of constituencies (or plurality if he or she enters a coalition). Would the system outlined at the start of the post make the government less efficient?
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Farm_Ecology
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I do like the idea.

I think the UK should make a move to becoming a more democratic country, there is a worrying degree of people that seem to want a dictatorship. It would cause more conflict in the government, but that's a good thing. Government should be a situation where the majority must comprimise with the minority to achieve the desires of the whole nation.

Although to be honest, I would go a step further and allow us to vote for the whole cabinet seperately, and thereby 'vote' for policies of mulitple parties.
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flibber
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(Original post by Farm_Ecology)
I do like the idea.

I think the UK should make a move to becoming a more democratic country, there is a worrying degree of people that seem to want a dictatorship. It would cause more conflict in the government, but that's a good thing. Government should be a situation where the majority must comprimise with the minority to achieve the desires of the whole nation.

Although to be honest, I would go a step further and allow us to vote for the whole cabinet seperately, and thereby 'vote' for policies of multiple parties.
I'm not aware of any parties or people which favor a dictatorship. However, your idea for electing cabinet ministers separately has some flaws:

1) Turnout. While many people would have a clear choice on who they want to be the next Chancellor, Education Minister, or Health Minister, I'm not sure if they know or care much about the role of the Minister for Prisons. In lesser known ministries, people would just vote for the party they're naturally comfortable with.

2) Cooperation. Some ministries must work with other ministries. Having two ministries from two different parties would be like two siblings fighting for who gets the better room etc. It'd be inefficient due to constant fighting over which party gets its way.



P.S. I don't know why I should care much about this. I'm proudly non-aligned to any of the British political parties. I think it will let me view the policies of each party from a more objective angle.

The reason why I made this thread was when I heard that my dad is considering to vote Labour due to Ed Miliband's pledged tuition fees cuts, but a vote for Labour in my constituency would be useless as Labour are unheard of in my local area (which is a fierce battleground constituency between the Lib Dems and the Conservative). I still believe a separation of parliamentary and prime minister elections would allow voters to choose both the candidate for MP who they believe would benefit them locally and the candidate for Prime Minister who they believe would benefit them on national policies.

P.P.S. Do you think capitalism is evil?
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XMaramena
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(Original post by flibber)
... where you can vote for the leader of your nation directly and separately from your vote for your local representative
Isn't that like the American system where they elect governors for constituencies, but also vote for their presidential candidates?
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flibber
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(Original post by XMaramena)
Isn't that like the American system where they elect governors for constituencies, but also vote for their presidential candidates?
Yes. I do think despite the well known flaws of the American Electoral College, Americans get more choice than we do in elections: presidential, gubernatorial, US senate, US House of Representatives, mayoral, district attorney, attorney general, state senate, state house (or Unicameral in Nebraska), in some states, separate lieutenant governor elections.

Is there a name for it though?
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Farm_Ecology
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(Original post by flibber)
I'm not aware of any parties or people which favor a dictatorship.
Not parties, but people. The whole mantra that democracy and representation just get in the way of getting stuff done.


(Original post by flibber)
However, your idea for electing cabinet ministers separately has some flaws:

1) Turnout. While many people would have a clear choice on who they want to be the next Chancellor, Education Minister, or Health Minister, I'm not sure if they know or care much about the role of the Minister for Prisons. In lesser known ministries, people would just vote for the party they're naturally comfortable with.
This is probably the biggest problem.

(Original post by flibber)
2) Cooperation. Some ministries must work with other ministries. Having two ministries from two different parties would be like two siblings fighting for who gets the better room etc. It'd be inefficient due to constant fighting over which party gets its way.
It certain would cause fighting, which is exactly part of the point. There should be discussion and compromise at all levels of government. It the people decide that they want the economic policies of labour, and the health strategies of the tories, it's up to the Government to work that out.


(Original post by flibber)
P.P.S. Do you think capitalism is evil?
Not at all.
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zippity.doodah
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the french system (e.g. a cohabiting prime minister and active president) is called semi-presidentialism
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XMaramena
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(Original post by flibber)
Yes. I do think despite the well known flaws of the American Electoral College, Americans get more choice than we do in elections: presidential, gubernatorial, US senate, US House of Representatives, mayoral, district attorney, attorney general, state senate, state house (or Unicameral in Nebraska), in some states, separate lieutenant governor elections.

Is there a name for it though?
Federal Government I think.
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LinksRadikal
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The bourgeois state is never going to be more democratic, since for as long as it exists, the interests of a (minority) ruling class will be seen as identical to the interests of the whole of society. [/Marxist thread derailing]
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by LinksRadikal)
The bourgeois state is never going to be more democratic, since for as long as it exists, the interests of a (minority) ruling class will be seen as identical to the interests of the whole of society. [/Marxist thread derailing]
ah come on, don't spoil it
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
ah come on, don't spoil it
it's a legit point
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
it's a legit point
1) most people would disagree
2) it's totally irrelevant; I wouldn't come onto a page about methods of government spending and groan about how it needs to stop via libertarian/anarcho-capitalism arguments, for example (on the flip side)
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Snagprophet
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Well firstly the French presidents and US presidents are heads of states. David Cameron isn't Vladimir Putin is PM, president in Russia is some guy who does what our Queen does.
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gladders
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(Original post by flibber)
... where you can vote for the leader of your nation directly and separately from your vote for your local representative; it's used in France, for example. I know in America there's a gradually fading phenomenon called 'ticket-splitting' where you can vote for a presidential candidate from one party and the representative from another, but I want to know the general name for voting for a representative and leader separately, instead of the British system, in which you vote for an MP who essentially pledges to vote for his party leader as Prime Minister.
Such a system is called 'presidentialism' or semi-presidentialism in countries, like France, where a Prime Minister still exists. In both circustances, the President is executive, and in France, the PM is little more than a parliamentary spokesperson for the President.

Would such a system work in the UK? Would it be more 'democratic' as the Prime Minister would be the person who has the most votes, not (as it currently stands) the majority of constituencies (or plurality if he or she enters a coalition). Would the system outlined at the start of the post make the government less efficient?
Well, first, when you ask, do you mean a) we should change our system to that of the Americans or French, or do you mean b) we should keep our present system but simply have an additional, separate election for the PM?

In either case, I'd say no, mind you. a) is fine, but I wouldn't consider it more democratic than what we presently have, as in the US, an elected president clashes with an elected legislature, and there is no means of democratic resolution when they disagree. Consider how ossified American politics is right now.

As for b), Israel tried such a system in the late 1990s, and it was considered such a bad idea that they repealed it in 2001.
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gladders
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(Original post by flibber)
I think I meant b), that is, have separate elections for your MP and your PM. Was there a reason why it was a bad idea? Did it make the PM virtually powerless in the case of a Parliament controlled by an opposition?
Pretty much, yes. Electors 'split the ticket' in 1996 and 1999, electing as Prime Minister the leader of one party but giving a majority to a coalition of parties fundamentally hostile to his program. It meant coalition-building was very difficult, and parliamentary states like Britain and Israel depend very much upon a stable coalition to support the Executive.

The 'reform' had been brought in as a means of controlling the ability of smaller parties to dictate terms when forming coalitions, but it simply aggravated the problem, and the resulting coalitions were more fragile and more temporary than ever.

I'm not very knowledgeable about British politics. Despite having never set foot on American soil, following American politics is more interesting to me. I am aware about the gridlocked state of Congress, but that is more to do with people (Ted Cruz) trying to impress his base with filibusters etc, and I believe it's a rather recent phemenon. Despite the Republican's 1995 shutdown and 1998 impeachment of the President, they did work with Bill Clinton and achieved several notable pieces of legislation. I think compromising is what many American politicians don't know about or can't do for fear of a primary challenge from one of their own party members, which forces them to shift to the extremes to impress their base. Whether this cross-partisan cooperation can be repeated post-Obama if Hillary Clinton wins is, however, another question. I certainly don't see it in the forseeable future, and certainly not with Keystone XL, Iran, Obamacare, and immigration reform on the table. I'm looking forward to the 2016 presidential election, especially if a Democrat runs a credible challenge against Hillary, and who wins the Republican primaries.

Back to topic...
Oh I agree, when the American system works, it works quite well. But when it doesn't, and political actors compete, there remains no democratic source of resolution. Even in extremis in the parliamentary system, there is a stage at which the politicians are all fired and it's down to the people to sort it out.

But I believe that the current system makes some people's votes (that is, those who live in swing constituencies) worth more than others, not dissimilar to the flaws of the American Electoral College system, and a change would let all votes be as equally important, regardless of where you live.
That's a valid criticism, but not so much to do with the Prime Minister not being directly elected as it is down to our voting system. Israel ironically has the other extreme - absolute List with a very low representation threshold.

P.S. Sorry for long digressions.

P.P.S. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Not at all, I am a big dork for comparative politics
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AdvanceAndVanquish
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(Original post by flibber)
... where you can vote for the leader of your nation directly and separately from your vote for your local representative; it's used in France, for example. I know in America there's a gradually fading phenomenon called 'ticket-splitting' where you can vote for a presidential candidate from one party and the representative from another, but I want to know the general name for voting for a representative and leader separately, instead of the British system, in which you vote for an MP who essentially pledges to vote for his party leader as Prime Minister.

Would such a system work in the UK? Would it be more 'democratic' as the Prime Minister would be the person who has the most votes, not (as it currently stands) the majority of constituencies (or plurality if he or she enters a coalition). Would the system outlined at the start of the post make the government less efficient?
It's not so much that Americans have this special right to 'split the ticket' as that the elections for the executive and the elections for both legislative houses are, legally speaking, entirely separate, unconnected affairs, despite happening for the sake of conveniece at the same time and on the same ballot. This reflects the fact that they are entirely separate branches of government, in contrast to the British or Israeli parliamentary system in which the executive is essentially a part of the legislative.
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saayagain
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Dictatorship.
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