The rise of Russian nationalism and their threat to the west Watch

PowelliteScum :)
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As any well informed individual can see, Russia is close to becoming our enemy once again. It is annexing neighbouring countries, imprisoning homosexuals and immigrants and Putin (and his supporters) are killing off any political dissent and suppressing religious freedoms. Nationalism is on the rise and the people their genuinely believe that Putin is a good man of good intentions and it is us who are the evil in the world. We can see from the documentary below that racism is rife in the country, and people there are becoming angry and violent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ar-right-proud

So it would be right to say that these people and their leader pose a threat to this country and are a risk for liberalism and democracy. However, there are some on this forum who are delusional Nazi sympathisers, usually those who are on the political left who support the greens/ Labour and hate the west so much that they will defend Putin. What do you traitors say in defence Putin and his discrimination and belligerence?
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The two eds
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...and the Greens, Plaid Cymru, SNP and I am pretty sure Labour/lib dems (eventually) want to scrap our military recourses and infrastructure as well as shrink our military personnel to near 0.

My question to the lefties. What sense does doing these drastic cuts make when all over the world Russia, China, India, Turkey, North Korea, Iran and so on are increasing their military budget and recourses?

What world do you lefties live in? A world of kisses and rainbows?

It is a dangerous world and if humanity has shown one thing throughout history, it craves war so we should always be best prepared for one.
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capitalismstinks
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What did Putin ever do to the west?
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Rakas21
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
What did Putin ever do to the west?
Tried to put Ukraine in it's customs union.
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Studentus-anonymous
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Firstly some misconceptions:

- Russia is very much a shadow of it's former self, yes Russia under Putin is acting belligerently (and shame on them) but Russia as an effective threat to the west is long past.
Russia can barely maintain it's puppets in Donetsk. It's actions in Ukraine were more desperate than anything else. Russia felt it had to ensure it maintained it's Black Sea fleet bases, which under a pro-western government (which overthrew the previous democratically elected one) they feared losing, and fixing a relatively recent "mistake" of history (returning Crimea to Russia, which was a matter of decades ago Russian) was just the icing on the cake for them.

- A lot of the issue is the west's brazen antagonism of Russia. Russia has clearly stated in the past it would not tolerate western encroachment into it's back yard. Say what you will of that but the US wouldn't tolerate the Warsaw Pact (if it still existed) in Mexico. It sure as hell didn't tolerate it in Cuba.
The US' constant meddling in the affairs of Eastern Europe was bound to rile up Russia, so in a sense and to a great extent the west brought the current state of relations upon ourselves.


Russia under Putin has a lot to answer for, but rhetoric and fear-mongering are just pointless.
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Aj12
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
Firstly some misconceptions:

- Russia is very much a shadow of it's former self, yes Russia under Putin is acting belligerently (and shame on them) but Russia as an effective threat to the west is long past.
Russia can barely maintain it's puppets in Donetsk. It's actions in Ukraine were more desperate than anything else. Russia felt it had to ensure it maintained it's Black Sea fleet bases, which under a pro-western government (which overthrew the previous democratically elected one) they feared losing, and fixing a relatively recent "mistake" of history (returning Crimea to Russia, which was a matter of decades ago Russian) was just the icing on the cake for them.

- A lot of the issue is the west's brazen antagonism of Russia. Russia has clearly stated in the past it would not tolerate western encroachment into it's back yard. Say what you will of that but the US wouldn't tolerate the Warsaw Pact (if it still existed) in Mexico. It sure as hell didn't tolerate it in Cuba.
The US' constant meddling in the affairs of Eastern Europe was bound to rile up Russia, so in a sense and to a great extent the west brought the current state of relations upon ourselves.


Russia under Putin has a lot to answer for, but rhetoric and fear-mongering are just pointless.

Is this an approach to foreign policy we should be tolerating though? Where a nation can just draw a circle around other sovereign nations and say this is mine. Should we allow Taiwan and Vietnam to belong to China or Yemen to Iran? I understand why Russia is acting as it is but I reject the premise that they are entitled to just take over Eastern Europe and turn it into a series of puppet states. Not only is there soft power and economic coercion, but invasion and the supplying of an insurgency.

Yes America would not have tolerated a South American Warsaw Pact, as you say their attitude to Cuba perfectly demonstrates this. But that was a different policy for a different time. I don't know how America would react to something like that today, but China and Russia are all over certain nations within South America, whilst there has been a response, it is nothing on the scale of what Russia has done.
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DaniilKaya
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(Original post by PowelliteScum :))
As any well informed individual can see, Russia is close to becoming our enemy once again. It is annexing neighbouring countries, imprisoning homosexuals and immigrants and Putin (and his supporters) are killing off any political dissent and suppressing religious freedoms. Nationalism is on the rise and the people their genuinely believe that Putin is a good man of good intentions and it is us who are the evil in the world. We can see from the documentary below that racism is rife in the country, and people there are becoming angry and violent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ar-right-proud

So it would be right to say that these people and their leader pose a threat to this country and are a risk for liberalism and democracy. However, there are some on this forum who are delusional Nazi sympathisers, usually those who are on the political left who support the greens/ Labour and hate the west so much that they will defend Putin. What do you traitors say in defence Putin and his discrimination and belligerence?
I was born in Russia and lived 10 years, then came back to Russia recently for Easter holiday and have seen the progress.

First of all, nationalism and racism is decreasing, but patriotism is increasing. This is due to the decrease in poverty and economic growth ( that west is trying to stop, rather than to cooperate economically)

Second, homosexuals are going to prison for breaking a law. The only law in Russia that talks about homosexuals is about propaganda of homosexuality among minors (underage). I have seen a lot of cases, in fact in my town a boy was nearly brainwashed by a homosexual guy about the homosexual love. This is why homosexuality and pedophilia is tied together in this law - Propaganda of pedophilia and homosexuality.

Third, there is no evidence of Putin killing Boris Nemtsov. This is what i would say, if Boris Nemtsov did back up his anti-putin statements with an evidence, he would not been killed. Either way in my opinion, it is a pure provocation to worsen the Image of Putin in the west.

Boris Nemtsov was always negative, and once the officers detected $10,000 transaction from USA which gives us an idea of the motive of his activity

Why Putin killed Nemtsov? to get a bad image from the West?

Of course not, he was nothing, he had no political significance in Russia.

By the way there is no disctimination of homosexuality in Russia.

And also let russians to fight for their homosexual rights, it took 20 years for Germans to do that. Do not influence us with homosexual rights pls. Well the is no difference between homosexual and heterosexual right anyway, they both have same opportunity in Russia
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by capitalismstinks)
What did Putin ever do to the west?
Threatened it militarily.
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DaniilKaya
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Threatened it militarily.
Flying around the international airspace around Europe is threat? Like when NATO was/is flying around Russia?
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Studentus-anonymous
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(Original post by Aj12)
Is this an approach to foreign policy we should be tolerating though? Where a nation can just draw a circle around other sovereign nations and say this is mine. Should we allow Taiwan and Vietnam to belong to China or Yemen to Iran? I understand why Russia is acting as it is but I reject the premise that they are entitled to just take over Eastern Europe and turn it into a series of puppet states. Not only is there soft power and economic coercion, but invasion and the supplying of an insurgency.

Yes America would not have tolerated a South American Warsaw Pact, as you say their attitude to Cuba perfectly demonstrates this. But that was a different policy for a different time. I don't know how America would react to something like that today, but China and Russia are all over certain nations within South America, whilst there has been a response, it is nothing on the scale of what Russia has done.
I expected that someone would raise that point and honestly, in an ideal world yes. People shouldn't have 'spheres' of influence. Russia is certainly in the wrong.

The problem is that we live in a world where the US wouldn't tolerate interference in it's spheres either. If anything America is much worse, in relation to the sheer distance and scope. It doesn't quite militarily occupy (outside of Iraq and Afghanistan though only for a matter of years) but it certainly likes to pressurize (and in some known cases actively undermine and lead to overthrow) other countries to see it the American way.


I broadly think that as long as you're a reasonably developed western economy, being an American "friend" is better than the alternatives (not counting absolute freedom from interference), so I can't blame people for resisting Russian aggression. Simply put in the grand scheme of things Russia has no choice if it values geopolitical freedom but to try and draw a last desperate line against American advance.
Still, would be nice if Russia could just sign up to the western model, it will likely be broadly better off and certainly civil society will be better off (reforms and so forth).

Mainly my point was that America has long known that Ukraine was that "line too far" for Russia, hence why it has only just found itself relatively in this cluster**** while the rest of eastern Europe (not counting Belarus) fell neatly and quietly into the western sphere.
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Rovey
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Lol russia's heralded as the 'aggressor' while America with its 800 military installations that span the planet together with endless wars is viewed as a power devoted to peace and stabilty
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by DaniilKaya)
Flying around the international airspace around Europe is threat? Like when NATO was/is flying around Russia?
The Russians have been upping the ante for some time under Putin.
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The_Mighty_Bush
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The Russians have been upping the ante for some time under Putin.
Well obviously Putin is more insistent in promoting Russian interests when what came before was Yeltsin who was basically a Western lackey.

Putin, while authoritarian, has generally been very good for Russia. I'd quite like Britain to have someone with his economic stewardship but without the stranglehold on press freedom.
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The Dictator
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(Original post by The_Mighty_Bush)
Well obviously Putin is more insistent in promoting Russian interests when what came before was Yeltsin who was basically a Western lackey.

Putin, while authoritarian, has generally been very good for Russia. I'd quite like Britain to have someone with his economic stewardship but without the stranglehold on press freedom.
Hence why the Russian economy is heading for collapse.
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The_Mighty_Bush
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(Original post by The Dictator)
Hence why the Russian economy is heading for collapse.
The oil price won't stay this low for ever.
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Pegasus2
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(Original post by Rovey)
Lol russia's heralded as the 'aggressor' while America with its 800 military installations that span the planet together with endless wars is viewed as a power devoted to peace and stabilty
The baltic states don't have a tank or fighter plane between them, literally ZERO. Estonia's army numbers 5,000. Russia is 'exercising' 80,000 - 100,000 troops on their doorstep after abducting a boarder guard and Estonia asking for some backup is labeled as 'aggressive'.

Also flying nuclear bombers up to other nations boarders without transponders I suppose is seen as 'normal' in Russia. Also thretening to nuke them doesn't generally go down very well for relations in general.

You know the saying "You can judge a man by his friends" ?

How many has Russia got again?
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Aj12
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Studentus-anonymous
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(Original post by Pegasus2)
Also thretening to nuke them doesn't generally go down very well for relations in general.
I feel like clarifying for you that it wasn't some random threat but a statement of fact that any country hosting missile defence shield facilities becomes a legitimate target in a MAD scenario, as that state effectively becomes part of the potential enemy's nuclear umbrella.

In any potential nuclear exchange, Russia will need to take out missile defence sites to ensure as many of it's long-range missiles reaches the US.

This wasn't some cold callous threat out of the blue, it's simple nuclear geopolitics. It was a statement of fact.

I'm no Putin lover or Russophile but the hyperbole and rhetoric and flat out misinformation relating to Russia can get a bit tiresome.
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DaniilKaya
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The Russians have been upping the ante for some time under Putin.
NATO from the fall of Soviet Union, made the agreement with a drunk Yeltsin in which we could not move our army inside our territory
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Lionheart96
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(Original post by Pegasus2)
The baltic states don't have a tank or fighter plane between them, literally ZERO. Estonia's army numbers 5,000. Russia is 'exercising' 80,000 - 100,000 troops on their doorstep after abducting a boarder guard and Estonia asking for some backup is labeled as 'aggressive'.

Also flying nuclear bombers up to other nations boarders without transponders I suppose is seen as 'normal' in Russia. Also thretening to nuke them doesn't generally go down very well for relations in general.

You know the saying "You can judge a man by his friends" ?

How many has Russia got again?
how many have we got? America? The USA doesn't have friends, it doesn't need allies, it needs vassals and thats pretty much all that we are to them.
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