Australian Points System? Watch

scrunkie
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What exactly is the Australian points system and what's so wrong with it? From what I've heard Nigel Farage saying, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea tbh.
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gladders
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The UK already has a points-based system, but from everything I've seen, Farage is banking on general ignorance of British immigration policy that assumes we don't and that we're a 'soft touch'.
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by gladders)
The UK already has a points-based system, but from everything I've seen, Farage is banking on general ignorance of British immigration policy that assumes we don't and that we're a 'soft touch'.
do we have it for EU migrants?
no? then how do we meaningfully have it as our immigration policy?
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gladders
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
do we have it for EU migrants?
no? then how do we meaningfully have it as our immigration policy?
We don't have it for EU migrants, no. But it is applied to non-EU migrants.

Free movement of European peoples is a pillar of the Single Market and is non-negotiable. I am in support of it, myself.
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Europhile
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(Original post by gladders)
The UK already has a points-based system, but from everything I've seen, Farage is banking on general ignorance of British immigration policy that assumes we don't and that we're a 'soft touch'.
This is pretty misleading.

The UK has a points system for non EU migrants.
The UK doesn't have a points system for EU migrants.

Farage isn't banking on ignorance at all. He wants the rules applied to non EU migrants applied to EU migrants. How is that ignorance? If anything, its a fairer policy all around as it doesn't discriminate against non EU nationals in favour of EU nationals.

Whether you agree or UKIP or not, it's by far one of their most sensible policies and a policy that is accepted as the norm around large parts of the world.
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Sir Candour
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
do we have it for EU migrants?
no? then how do we meaningfully have it as our immigration policy?
Meaningfully? More migrants come from outside of the EU than from within.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30243472

The rhetoric of immigration being a pernicious, un-stoppable flood is exaggerated. They are allowed in because they are deemed economically essential (to help counter a rising pensioner population, for example).
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by gladders)
We don't have it for EU migrants, no. But it is applied to non-EU migrants.

Free movement of European peoples is a pillar of the Single Market and is non-negotiable. I am in support of it, myself.
so we don't have a full australian points system. we have a very limited form of it. so no, we don't actually have it.
and why do you support it? are you planning on hopping from nation to nation any time soon?
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gladders
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(Original post by Europhile)
This is pretty misleading.

The UK has a points system for non EU migrants.
The UK doesn't have a points system for EU migrants.

Farage isn't banking on ignorance at all. He wants the rules applied to non EU migrants applied to EU migrants. How is that ignorance? If anything, its a fairer policy all around as it doesn't discriminate against non EU nationals in favour of EU nationals.

Whether you agree or UKIP or not, it's by far one of their most sensible policies and a policy that is accepted as the norm around large parts of the world.
Well, yes. There is no points system for EU migrants because EU law does not allow such things. It's been a part of EU law for donkey's years, and we've managed quite fine.

And no, Farage is banking on ignorance. Most people I speak to don't realise we already have a points-based system at all. And what's more, if he was honest and consistent, he wouldn't be arguing for one. He'd be making a direct link between withdrawal from the EU and the extension of the existing points-based system to incorporate our former EU neighbours.
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Europhile
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(Original post by gladders)
And no, Farage is banking on ignorance. Most people I speak to don't realise we already have a points-based system at all.
You must hang around with complete idiots then.
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gladders
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
so we don't have a full australian points system. we have a very limited form of it. so no, we don't actually have it.
and why do you support it? are you planning on hopping from nation to nation any time soon?
Could do, yeah. And I know that thousands of Brits take advantage of it all the time, too.
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gladders
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(Original post by Europhile)
You must hang around with complete idiots then.
I guess so.
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by Sir Candour)
Meaningfully? More migrants come from outside of the EU than from within.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30243472

The rhetoric of immigration being a pernicious, un-stoppable flood is exaggerated. They are allowed in because they are deemed economically essential (to help counter a rising pensioner population, for example).
the outside EU immigrants are the immigrants that are good for us economically, or are at least much better - because of the points system
the EU immigration is all low skilled and basically not necessary specifically for any industry right now - it's just a strain on employment and housing when we have all these outside immigrants we probably specifically require (e.g. NHS)
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Sir Candour
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
the outside EU immigrants are the immigrants that are good for us economically, or are at least much better - because of the points system
the EU immigration is all low skilled and basically not necessary specifically for any industry right now - it's just a strain on employment and housing when we have all these outside immigrants we probably specifically require (e.g. NHS)
Citation for the bolded claims please. Hard numbers preferred. Don't assert a point without evidence.

As it goes, evidence points to the exact opposite: EU migrants contribute more. Actually, to the extent that they pay more into our system than they ever take out.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6...#axzz3XVabUCJU
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by Sir Candour)
Citation for the bolded claims please. Hard numbers preferred. Don't assert a point without evidence.

As it goes, evidence points to the exact opposite: EU migrants contribute more. Actually, to the extent that they pay more into our system than they ever take out.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6...#axzz3XVabUCJU
why do you think we need outside immigration when we already have EU migration? just to fill our country up unnecessarily?!
and I never claimed EU immigrants took money out of the system - I said they strain employment and housing. where did I claim they took more out than they put into? it's not all about that. housing and employment technically aren't based on the overall economy, yet they're big problems.
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Sir Candour
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
why do you think we need outside immigration when we already have EU migration? just to fill our country up unnecessarily?!
I can give one example, as time is sparse. India isn't in the EU, and yet it has arguably contributed significantly to the rise of the US tech industry. With plans, or dreams, to make London the tech capital of Europe, we may wish to utilise Indian workers in the same way:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c...-workers/?_r=0



(Original post by zippity.doodah)
and I never claimed EU immigrants took money out of the system....

You didn't read the whole article it seems. A shame, because you would have understood why I posted it if you had.

'the outside EU immigrants are the immigrants that are good for us economically'

It was this I was challenging. Evidence afore-posted (in that handy article) states that only EU migrants contribute more to the system than they take out. They are quantifiably more valuable economically than non-EU migrants.

"migrants from outside the EU were a net cost of £118bn compared with the net contribution of £4bn by EU migrants over the same period."

In regards to housing, prove that they are more likely to take homes than non-EU migrants.

As for the wider housing debate: I agree, it's a problem. I'd argue that the issues sit at the feet of the governments, since the 1980's, that have repeatedly shunned their duty to provide sufficient council-housing stock. The shock of a sudden wave of immigration exacerbated this. However, as the economy recovers, and hopefully governments pull their thumbs from their rears, the issue shall hopefully balance out sooner or later.

Here's the original article again, in case you want it:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c49043a8-6...#axzz3XVabUCJU
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by Sir Candour)
I can give one example, as time is sparse. India isn't in the EU, and yet it has arguably contributed significantly to the rise of the US tech industry. With plans, or dreams, to make London the tech capital of Europe, we may wish to utilise Indian workers in the same way:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.c...-workers/?_r=0
dude, I was actually arguing that same thing - you obviously don't understand sarcasm - I am saying they are a part of the (good for us) points system, so what would you be trying to convince me of?

You didn't read the whole article it seems. A shame, because you would have got why I posted it if you had.

'the outside EU immigrants are the immigrants that are good for us economically'

It was this I was challenging. Evidence afore-posted (in that handy article) states that only EU migrants contribute more to the system than they take out. They are quantifiably more valuable economically than non-EU migrants.


how is that the case? what do EU immigrants do that non-EU immigrants do that is better economically for us? the outside EU immigrants are more likely to be skilled and thus pay more in taxes, right?

As for housing etc, prove that they are more likely to take homes than non-EU migrants.
I didn't argue that they were more likely to, I said that they are also a factor in terms of the housing strain, but at least they are better for us economically

As for the wider housing debate: I agree, it's a problem. I'd argue that the issues sit at the feet of the governments, since the 1980's, that have repeatedly shunned their duty to provide a sufficient council-housing stock.

Here's the original article again, in case you want it:
I'd rather we had less pointless immigration to sort that problem out though, not more taxation to fund these projects.
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Sir Candour
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(Original post by zippity.doodah)
dude, I was actually arguing that same thing - you obviously don't understand sarcasm - I am saying they are a part of the (good for us) points system, so what would you be trying to convince me of?"
Sorry (on the sarcasm point), I'm knackered! I had thought you as a nut-job for a moment there. Excuse me.


(Original post by zippity.doodah)
how is that the case? what do EU immigrants do that non-EU immigrants do that is better economically for us? the outside EU immigrants are more likely to be skilled and thus pay more in taxes, right?
Don't ask me, it's up to you to prove your point! They don't pay more in tax than EU migrants, as shown. I remember reading (from that same article) that it may be because they (EU migrants) are more likely to have degrees. Also, forgive me for not being able to cite at the moment, I forgot where I had read it: EU migrants are more likely to return to their home nations at old age - ergo avoiding the costs of care that we usually provide.


(Original post by zippity.doodah)
I didn't argue that they were more likely to
Just making sure that we had covered all of the basis for migrant comparison economically.

(Original post by zippity.doodah)
. I'd rather we had less pointless immigration to sort that problem out though, not more taxation to fund these projects.
The presupposition of your statement is that there would be enough homes if immigration was lower. Prove it! Remember: you have to take into account, likely deduct, the amount of homes that have been built because of an immigrant construction work-force. Or show that those homes would have been built regardless of those foreign workers.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by scrunkie)
What exactly is the Australian points system and what's so wrong with it? From what I've heard Nigel Farage saying, it doesn't sound like such a bad idea tbh.
Good question.

Truth is that UKIP have not presented the framework of the APS they so desperately want. You'd think they would since it is one of their two major policies.

Then again, do you really expect them to elaborate on anything?

(Original post by zippity.doodah)
how is that the case? what do EU immigrants do that non-EU immigrants do that is better economically for us? the outside EU immigrants are more likely to be skilled and thus pay more in taxes, right?
Maybe not. Maybe skilled immigrants are so skilled that they know how to evade tax! :laugh:
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HigherMinion
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Well, when you focus on the economics of it and isolate culture, depending on your class and which pies your fingers are in, you certainly would see the benefits of an unhindered immigration of free movement. The problem with this whole debate is that the Left wing parties (Labour, PC, SNP, etc.) think in global terms, and believe that the UK isn't a homeland for the British, but simply a geographical location that should be dog-eat-dog. Then they enforce more totalitarian policies to ensure we aren't attacking each other for resources.

Explain to me why immigration on a massive scale, free movement, is beneficial for Britons. It destroys communities for a lot of people. It could well be discrimination on the Britbong part, but I see no problem in discrimination- it's our right to association. Even Farage has claimed that we would all be better off by 1gbp a month or so with mass immigration, but the social effects do not balance the equation at all. We need to focus on increasing Social Capital. Less ethnic tensions in our own country can only be dealt with by suppressing further immigration for a duration, and slowly drip-feeding more later.
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pinkteddyx64
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(Original post by gladders)
The UK already has a points-based system, but from everything I've seen, Farage is banking on general ignorance of British immigration policy that assumes we don't and that we're a 'soft touch'.
Like 9 out of 10 people I've asked their opinion on immigration are like. :unimpressed: :banghead:
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