What Toilets Should Pre-Op Transgenders Use?

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Poll: What Toilets Should Pre-Op Transgender People Use?
The Toilets of Their Biological Sex (68)
46.58%
The Toilets of Their New Identity (78)
53.42%
This discussion is closed.
aj27cross
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#1
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#1
I got into a bit of a debate yesterday over which toilet a pre-op transgender should use. I personally believe that they should use the toilets of the gender they identify as, and that people shouldn't care as they are only going to the toilet.

Whilst others said that they would find this creepy and wrong for a physical women to go into the men's toilets or vice versa.

I was actually quite surprised that 14 people agreed with the other view and only 7 mine. And I'm just wondering what TSR agrees with.
3
tazarooni89
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#2
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#2
(Original post by aj27cross)
I got into a bit of a debate yesterday over which toilet a pre-op transgender should use. I personally believe that they should use the toilets of the gender they identify as, and that people shouldn't care as they are only going to the toilet.
I would disagree with this. Anyone can "identify" as anything they like, which means this effectively gives anyone of any sex a free reign to use whichever set of toilets they like, which completely defeats the point of having segregated toilets in the first place.

Also, even if a person who is physically female feels more comfortable using the male toilets, I think that priority ought to be given to the comfort of all those many other people using that toilet who would feel very put off trying to use a urinal with a female standing around, as opposed to the comfort of that one single "transgender" individual. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Finally, I think that what you identify as or how you feel on the inside is your own business, and something that's very subjective and personal to you. It doesn't give you the right to expect the rest of society to treat you according to that, or to make special rules for you.
15
Zargabaath
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#3
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#3
(Original post by aj27cross)
I got into a bit of a debate yesterday over which toilet a pre-op transgender should use. I personally believe that they should use the toilets of the gender they identify as, and that people shouldn't care as they are only going to the toilet.

Whilst others said that they would find this creepy and wrong for a physical women to go into the men's toilets or vice versa.

I was actually quite surprised that 14 people agreed with the other view and only 7 mine. And I'm just wondering what TSR agrees with.
Definitely your physical sex. If you have a vagina, women's toilet, if you have a ****, men's toilet. Trans people shouldn't get special treatment.
4
Schrödingers Cat
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#4
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#4
Someone who looks like a female and identifies as a female; Use female toilets

Someone who looks like a male and identifies as a male; Use male toilets

Simple
3
aj27cross
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#5
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#5
(Original post by tazarooni89)
I would disagree with this. Anyone can "identify" as anything they like, which means this effectively gives anyone of any sex a free reign to use whichever set of toilets they like, which completely defeats the point of having segregated toilets in the first place.Also, even if a person who is physically female feels more comfortable using the male toilets, I think that priority ought to be given to the comfort of all those many other people using that toilet who would feel very put off trying to use a urinal with a female standing around, as opposed to the comfort of that one single "transgender" individual. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.Finally, I think that what you identify as or how you feel on the inside is your own business, and something that's very subjective and personal to you. It doesn't give you the right to expect the rest of society to treat you according to that, or to make special rules for you.
But, these people physically look the other gender, you don't see their genitals, so you don't know that they're trans. Whilst if I saw a women enter the toilet who is physically male that would make me more uncomfortable than the other way round, as I wouldn't know that she were trans.
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tazarooni89
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#6
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#6
(Original post by aj27cross)
But, these people physically look the other gender, you don't see their genitals, so you don't know that they're trans. Whilst if I saw a women enter the toilet who is physically male that would make me more uncomfortable than the other way round, as I wouldn't know that she were trans.
The problem is, the gender someone "identifies as", or the gender that someone looks like is very subjective. In the case of transgender people it can be a very blurred, grey area, and it can be easy to mistake someone for being something they aren't. Whereas if you simply make the rule according to what sex they physically belong to, it's objective, there's no confusion, and everyone knows which toilet they belong in.

I know a couple of girls for example, who are not transgender, but due to the way they cut their hair and dress etc. you could easily mistake them for being young males. In theory, if a woman saw one of these girls in a toilet and thought they were male, she could get uncomfortable. But I don't think anyone would suggest that these girls should be using the male toilets, because they aren't male in any way. It would simply be thought of as the woman's mistake for thinking they're male when they aren't. This shows that appearance is not an appropriate criterion to base the rule on. It has to be based on something objective.
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aj27cross
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#7
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#7
(Original post by tazarooni89)
The problem is, the gender someone "identifies as", or the gender that someone looks like is very subjective. In the case of transgender people it can be a very blurred, grey area, and it can be easy to mistake someone for being something they aren't. Whereas if you simply make the rule according to what sex they physically belong to, it's objective, there's no confusion, and everyone knows which toilet they belong in.I know a couple of girls for example, who are not transgender, but due to the way they cut their hair and dress etc. you could easily mistake them for being young males. In theory, if a woman saw one of these girls in a toilet and thought they were male, she could get uncomfortable. But I don't think anyone would suggest that these girls should be using the male toilets, because they aren't male in any way. It would simply be thought of as the woman's mistake for thinking they're male when they aren't. This shows that appearance is not an appropriate criterion to base the rule on. It has to be based on something objective.
But we can't establish every single persons physical sex prior to entering a toilet. Would it actually bother people if there is someone who may look like they're the other sex in the toilet? Or would they most likely assume that they're of the same gender and just look more masculine/feminine?
0
thecatwithnohat
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#8
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#8
I swear in male restrooms there are urinals as well as actual toilets?

A urinal wouldn't be needed in female restrooms.

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0
a96clark
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#9
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#9
Whatever gender they look like. As long as they use a cubicle, no one will know
0
Odd socks
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#10
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#10
they should use the toilets of the gender they identify as, but only if they feel safe doing so. It can expose transgender people to danger of being attacked so they might feel safer using the toilet of their assigned gender


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mughushed
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#11
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#11
Whatever gender they identify as, surely? I mean, why push them back into something they're trying to get from (their "assigned" gender)? Of course, like previously mentioned ^^^ only if they feel safe. Should be their choice
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tazarooni89
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#12
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#12
(Original post by aj27cross)
But we can't establish every single persons physical sex prior to entering a toilet.
I don't think we should try and establish anyone's physical sex, or have some security guard or something standing outside each toilet. I think it should just be a universally understood rule, followed on the basis of etiquette and courtesy, that you use the toilet that corresponds to your physical sex.

Would it actually bother people if there is someone who may look like they're the other sex in the toilet? Or would they most likely assume that they're of the same gender and just look more masculine/feminine?
I don't know. But the point is, whether someone felt uncomfortable or not, a girl who isn't transgender, but who looked like a male could still say without any shadow of a doubt that she belongs in the female toilets (I'm sure you'd agree). Appearance therefore bears no relevance as to which toilet one should use.

Similarly, even if someone is transgender in terms of how they identify themselves, it would be incorrect to say "They look male so they should use the male toilets, regardless of what physical sex they actually belong to", because as demonstrated above, appearance has nothing to do with it.
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aj27cross
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#13
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#13
(Original post by tazarooni89)
I don't think we should try and establish anyone's physical sex, or have some security guard or something standing outside each toilet. I think it should just be a universally understood rule, followed on the basis of etiquette and courtesy, that you use the toilet that corresponds to your physical sex.I don't know. But the point is, whether someone felt uncomfortable or not, a girl who isn't transgender, but who looked like a male could still say without any shadow of a doubt that she belongs in the female toilets (I'm sure you'd agree). Appearance therefore bears no relevance as to which toilet one should use.Similarly, even if someone is transgender in terms of how they identify themselves, it would be incorrect to say "They look male so they should use the male toilets, regardless of what physical sex they actually belong to", because as demonstrated above, appearance has nothing to do with it.
But if they wished to why should they not use the toilet of the sex they deem themselves to be?
0
Europhile
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#14
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#14
(Original post by poohat)
I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I’m ******ed but I don’t care, I’m beautiful. I’m having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me “Apache” and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can’t accept me you’re a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.

:rofl:
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tazarooni89
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#15
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#15
(Original post by aj27cross)
But if they wished to why should they not use the toilet of the sex they deem themselves to be?
I pretty much responded to this in my first post on the thread? (First and third paragraphs)
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happysmile
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#16
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#16
a debate about toilets... only on tsr :lol:
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majatheaztec
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#17
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#17
(Original post by aj27cross)
I got into a bit of a debate yesterday over which toilet a pre-op transgender should use. I personally believe that they should use the toilets of the gender they identify as, and that people shouldn't care as they are only going to the toilet.

Whilst others said that they would find this creepy and wrong for a physical women to go into the men's toilets or vice versa.

I was actually quite surprised that 14 people agreed with the other view and only 7 mine. And I'm just wondering what TSR agrees with.
I think they should have the freedom to use whatever bathroom they feel the most comfortable and SAFEST to use.
2
Wahrheit
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#18
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#18
I HATE the argument that you shouldn't do stuff because it might make other people feel slightly uncomfortable for a few seconds. It's like the argument against gay marriage. I feel uncomfortable when dads take their young daughters into the men's toilets, but I understand that, for them, it's a choice between doing that and sending them alone into the women's toilets which is just not something that most parents would do.

If you are born as X but identify as Y, you have every right to use the Y toilets. End of. Especially as you'll most likely look like Y anyway.
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tazarooni89
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#19
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#19
(Original post by Wahrheit)
I HATE the argument that you shouldn't do stuff because it might make other people feel slightly uncomfortable for a few seconds. It's like the argument against gay marriage. I feel uncomfortable when dads take their young daughters into the men's toilets, but I understand that, for them, it's a choice between doing that and sending them alone into the women's toilets which is just not something that most parents would do.

If you are born as X but identify as Y, you have every right to use the Y toilets. End of. Especially as you'll most likely look like Y anyway.
Then what's to stop a man walking into the female toilets or changing rooms just for the view, and to say "Oh, I err... identify as a woman now. And I hate the argument that I shouldn't do this because it makes other people uncomfortable"?

Why even have segregated facilities in the first place?
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aj27cross
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#20
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#20
(Original post by tazarooni89)
I pretty much responded to this in my first post on the thread? (First and third paragraphs)
Ok, people can identify as anything they want, however to have the devotion and commitment to changing your gender, imo should warrant use of their new genders toilet. It doesn't actually affect anyone else in the toilet.

You also have to remember that how they feel on the inside has effected them on the outside and they've changed their appearance. And there would be no special rules, if they choose to live that way, nobody can stop them, they shouldn't be disallowed because of their physical body.
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