Why are tories such big fans of VAT?
VAT is clearly the tories favourite tax. But I can't for the live of me work out why considering they are so focused on 'the economy' and consumerism. Surely VAT, basically a tax on everything, is bad for the economy because it makes everything more expensive and so acts as a disincentive to buy things...
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
(edited 9 years ago)
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The Tories are good to business owners. Businesses can claim back VAT if they have profit over a certain amount.
VAT is also a regressive tax so affects the poor the most, the Tories don't give a sh*t about them.
Posted from TSR Mobile
VAT is also a regressive tax so affects the poor the most, the Tories don't give a sh*t about them.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Because it's regressive.
Original post by cBay
VAT is clearly the tories favourite tax. But I can't for the live of me work out why considering they are so focused on 'the economy' and consumerism. Surely VAT, basically a tax on everything, is bad for the economy because it makes everything more expensive and so acts as a disincentive to buy things...
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
Are they really? They have increased VAT to 20% but no further and have made a very frank statement to say that they have no intention to raise it further. I also think you've missed a point here in that if businesses have to pay more in VAT, the pass that cost on, so they're no worse off if they're doing it right.
Original post by Mad Vlad
Are they really? They have increased VAT to 20% but no further and have made a very frank statement to say that they have no intention to raise it further. I also think you've missed a point here in that if businesses have to pay more in VAT, the pass that cost on, so they're no worse off if they're doing it right.
It was the tories who increased it to 20%, the tories who increased it to 17.5%, the tories who increased it to 15%. The tories love putting up VAT.
Original post by Mad Vlad
Are they really? They have increased VAT to 20% but no further and have made a very frank statement to say that they have no intention to raise it further. I also think you've missed a point here in that if businesses have to pay more in VAT, the pass that cost on, so they're no worse off if they're doing it right.
They almost always leave office having raised VAT. They specifically said in the 2010 election they wouldn't raise VAT. What was the first thing they did after election? Raise VAT.
Original post by DarkMagic
The Tories are good to business owners. Businesses can claim back VAT if they have profit over a certain amount.
VAT is also a regressive tax so affects the poor the most, the Tories don't give a sh*t about them.
Posted from TSR Mobile
VAT is also a regressive tax so affects the poor the most, the Tories don't give a sh*t about them.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Pretty much this.
They can raise VAT and pretend to cut people's taxes on their wage whilst cutting public services. Creating the illusion normal people are better off whilst in fact they are much worse off compared to the wealthy since trickle down economics is bull****.
Help the rich and business owners whilst shifting the burden on everyone else. Typical Tories.
Original post by cBay
VAT is clearly the tories favourite tax. But I can't for the live of me work out why considering they are so focused on 'the economy' and consumerism.
Ye well its the same morons who think repressing everyones' wage is good for a consumerist driven economy
. Take all the spending power away from people, that should sort things out. They are economically incompetent.(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by DaveSmith99
It was the tories who increased it to 20%, the tories who increased it to 17.5%, the tories who increased it to 15%. The tories love putting up VAT.
My point is, this consternation about them putting it up further is misplaced. It ain't going up any further.
Original post by Mad Vlad
My point is, this consternation about them putting it up further is misplaced. It ain't going up any further.
Yeah it probably won't be put up, but stranger things have happened. Especially as a similar pledge was made before the last election.
Original post by DaveSmith99
It was the tories who increased it to 20%, the tories who increased it to 17.5%, the tories who increased it to 15%. The tories love putting up VAT.
And Labour seem to love keeping it up...
Original post by Jammy Duel
And Labour seem to love keeping it up...
Indeed.
It's one thing to oppose a tax that the other party brings in, it's another to reverse it yourself.
We heard a lot of complaints from the Conservatives about Labour and the top rate of income tax, but what's interesting is that it was 40% for 13 years under Labour (apart from 50% for about 6 weeks before the 2010 election) but it was 50% for the first three years of Cameron's government and then only went down to 45%.
Why did the Conservatives not bring the top rate of tax down to 40% or even 35%? Do they not think that low taxes will help wealth creation which is what this country needs?
Original post by cBay
VAT is clearly the tories favourite tax. But I can't for the live of me work out why considering they are so focused on 'the economy' and consumerism. Surely VAT, basically a tax on everything, is bad for the economy because it makes everything more expensive and so acts as a disincentive to buy things...
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
Companies have less money to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment and lower wages, which means those people have less money to spend, which means other companies aren't making as much money, which means they have less to spend on staff, which leads to more unemployment, which ultimately leads to more benefit payouts. Incidentally, it also leads to companies having less money to spend on innovation. Right? Where am I going wrong?
Someone please enlighten me
There's an ideological reason and a practical reason.
The ideological argument was developed in the Conservative party in the late 1970s and reflects why they nearly doubled VAT from 8 to 15 per cent after the 1979 election. They were up front about the rationale for this: Geoffrey Howe the Chancellor said "pay as you spend is better than pay as you earn". The argument was that tax contribution to the government was more fairly determined by who consumed most, than who earned most.
The practical reason is that it is a more efficient tax to collect because it's harder to avoid than forms of income tax are. So if you increase VAT, you are more likely to see a stable tax revenue stream coming in in the future.
Whilst it might be mainly the Tories that raise VAT in the UK, in European countries where there are much more left leaning governments, VAT tends to be higher.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
Indeed.
It's one thing to oppose a tax that the other party brings in, it's another to reverse it yourself.
We heard a lot of complaints from the Conservatives about Labour and the top rate of income tax, but what's interesting is that it was 40% for 13 years under Labour (apart from 50% for about 6 weeks before the 2010 election) but it was 50% for the first three years of Cameron's government and then only went down to 45%.
Why did the Conservatives not bring the top rate of tax down to 40% or even 35%? Do they not think that low taxes will help wealth creation which is what this country needs?
It's one thing to oppose a tax that the other party brings in, it's another to reverse it yourself.
We heard a lot of complaints from the Conservatives about Labour and the top rate of income tax, but what's interesting is that it was 40% for 13 years under Labour (apart from 50% for about 6 weeks before the 2010 election) but it was 50% for the first three years of Cameron's government and then only went down to 45%.
Why did the Conservatives not bring the top rate of tax down to 40% or even 35%? Do they not think that low taxes will help wealth creation which is what this country needs?
I would say pragmatism, they should put it all the way back down to 40 (and possibly even drop the rate further) but now is not the time. Supposing that we get three terms of Conservative government (at least) I would expect it to come down to 40p in the 2021 budget. The main reason not to cut it isn't the lost income, that's VERY small losses, it's the whole "tax cuts for millionaires" crap while running a deficit, they should have ruled out the cut for the next parliament with a view to do it in the 2020-25 parliament.
Original post by Mad Vlad
My point is, this consternation about them putting it up further is misplaced. It ain't going up any further.
They literally said they would not put it up pre 2010 election then put it up straight away. WHY DO PEOPLE TRUST THEM?
Original post by Jammy Duel
And Labour seem to love keeping it up...
Yes. They are also ******s that are fine with regressive taxes. I'm not sure how this defends the conservatives other than they are as bad as each other.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
They literally said they would not put it up pre 2010 election then put it up straight away. WHY DO PEOPLE TRUST THEM?
Care to show me any significant party, actually I'll let you have the entire world and the entirety of history, who did not break a single promise?
Original post by Jammy Duel
Care to show me any significant party, actually I'll let you have the entire world and the entirety of history, who did not break a single promise?
We all know that most politicians the world over are currupt and bull****ters, doesn't make it right.
There's two types of broken promises though, there's the broken promise a few years into power when circumstances change and force your hand. Still not good, but forgivable. Then there is the broken promise a month after getting into power which means it was just an outright lie.
Original post by cBay
We all know that most politicians the world over are currupt and bull****ters, doesn't make it right.
There's two types of broken promises though, there's the broken promise a few years into power when circumstances change and force your hand. Still not good, but forgivable. Then there is the broken promise a month after getting into power which means it was just an outright lie.
There's two types of broken promises though, there's the broken promise a few years into power when circumstances change and force your hand. Still not good, but forgivable. Then there is the broken promise a month after getting into power which means it was just an outright lie.
But it is also worth noting that in the DCam quote from the April it was not explicitly ruled out, a statement that "we currently have no plans" is not the same as "we will not", for the Conservatives the circumstances had changed, they went from being the critical observer to the one with the power, the one that could actually see the mess.
Original post by cBay
Someone please enlighten me
Someone please enlighten me
Charging VAT is closer to a capitalistic goal of tax flat-rates. By reducing income tax, your low-middle middle class keep more of their earnings (rightly so), small businesses keep more of their profits by claiming back the VAT (rightly so) but everybody pays more for typical, non-food goods (rightly so).
What should really happen is a 50% tax on the MOST wealthy, not the £150kers, but the £200-300kers and a descending scale from 150-200k-40% so that those on £45k a year aren't in the 40% tax band. Introducing a 30% tax band would help to simplify things there. In America, the top band of tax is something like 32% and that's if you're earning something like $350k! Increasing corporation tax/ensuring it's paid is also important, with extra tax relief for your small businesses (coffee shops, salons, restaurants, plumbers/electricians etc.) to stimulate growth for the working and low-middle middle class. More money in the hands of businesses means more jobs, more apprenticeships and more wealth production (in the right industries).
It bewilders me that the Leftists can't see that. The state needs to stop meddling in the people's affairs because it's destroying this country and has been for the last 25 years. It's said that 50% of the electorate are entirely dependent on the state for either their wage or benefits, myself included upon graduation. You can't have any reduction in state spending if 50% of people rely on the state to live even if it's gonna bankrupt your country because nobody will vote for it. Things will change. There'll be another Thatcher, she'll be loved by the majority, hated by the few, but she'll set another 5 decades in motion for the production of wealth (and, let it be known that the 90s are the years where the poor were considered rich, thanks to mortgage booms and low credit card interest!).
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by AdamskiUK
Charging VAT is closer to a capitalistic goal of tax flat-rates. By reducing income tax, your low-middle middle class keep more of their earnings (rightly so), small businesses keep more of their profits by claiming back the VAT (rightly so) but everybody pays more for typical, non-food goods (rightly so).
What should really happen is a 50% tax on the MOST wealthy, not the £150kers, but the £200-300kers and a descending scale from 150-200k-40% so that those on £45k a year aren't in the 40% tax band. Introducing a 30% tax band would help to simplify things there. In America, the top band of tax is something like 32% and that's if you're earning something like $350k! Increasing corporation tax/ensuring it's paid is also important, with extra tax relief for your small businesses (coffee shops, salons, restaurants, plumbers/electricians etc.) to stimulate growth for the working and low-middle middle class. More money in the hands of businesses means more jobs, more apprenticeships and more wealth production (in the right industries).
It bewilders me that the Leftists can't see that. The state needs to stop meddling in the people's affairs because it's destroying this country and has been for the last 25 years. It's said that 50% of the electorate are entirely dependent on the state for either their wage or benefits, myself included upon graduation. You can't have any reduction in state spending if 50% of people rely on the state to live even if it's gonna bankrupt your country because nobody will vote for it. Things will change. There'll be another Thatcher, she'll be loved by the majority, hated by the few, but she'll set another 5 decades in motion for the production of wealth (and, let it be known that the 90s are the years where the poor were considered rich, thanks to mortgage booms and low credit card interest!).
What should really happen is a 50% tax on the MOST wealthy, not the £150kers, but the £200-300kers and a descending scale from 150-200k-40% so that those on £45k a year aren't in the 40% tax band. Introducing a 30% tax band would help to simplify things there. In America, the top band of tax is something like 32% and that's if you're earning something like $350k! Increasing corporation tax/ensuring it's paid is also important, with extra tax relief for your small businesses (coffee shops, salons, restaurants, plumbers/electricians etc.) to stimulate growth for the working and low-middle middle class. More money in the hands of businesses means more jobs, more apprenticeships and more wealth production (in the right industries).
It bewilders me that the Leftists can't see that. The state needs to stop meddling in the people's affairs because it's destroying this country and has been for the last 25 years. It's said that 50% of the electorate are entirely dependent on the state for either their wage or benefits, myself included upon graduation. You can't have any reduction in state spending if 50% of people rely on the state to live even if it's gonna bankrupt your country because nobody will vote for it. Things will change. There'll be another Thatcher, she'll be loved by the majority, hated by the few, but she'll set another 5 decades in motion for the production of wealth (and, let it be known that the 90s are the years where the poor were considered rich, thanks to mortgage booms and low credit card interest!).
The income tax proposals you suggest aren't particularly conservative though, they're high tax-large state ratehr than low tax-small state, while the taxes could still be pushed higher and thus the state made bigger, the 50-40-30-20 structure still sits too high. The top band should be no higher than 40pc, and preferably lower still than that. Based on average tax takes once government spending has been reigned in it should be more than possible to do this and in reality the top band should actually be down in the 30s.
Original post by Jammy Duel
The income tax proposals you suggest aren't particularly conservative though, they're high tax-large state ratehr than low tax-small state, while the taxes could still be pushed higher and thus the state made bigger, the 50-40-30-20 structure still sits too high. The top band should be no higher than 40pc, and preferably lower still than that. Based on average tax takes once government spending has been reigned in it should be more than possible to do this and in reality the top band should actually be down in the 30s.
I don't favour the Tories. I think every political party is useless. I'm liberal with my policies and I believe people who work should keep what they earn. I think that those who are on £300k, £500k or £10m shouldn't be paying the same tax as somebody who's on £150k. I also understand that increasing tax above the 50p threshold would severely affect our standings in the 'Where should I live if I'm rich' standings. I want to see more people in the 20-30% band but also more people at the very top in the 50% band. I don't think you should be leaving the 30% band until you're on £60-80k.
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