Madeleine McCann - Your Opinion. Watch

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Cremated_Spatula
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#81
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#81
(Original post by the bear)
unfortunately in this country we still cling to the old-fashioned evidence based approach to the judicial process. it is very expensive and time-consuming, and frankly dull. how much more exciting it would be if we could just watch some videos on Youtube and read some posts on some random forum; then we could have a phone in to vote for the verdict.
Lol if you say so.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Yes. His Hypothesis is made up. It has no evidence for most of it. There is no evidence that her Body was disposed of by the parents and then kept her clothes. There is no evidence that they disposed of any Clothes in the aftermath.

Again, not only is there no evidence, it makes no sense that they would dispose of a body and then keep the clothes for 25 days +.
That's why its a hypothesis and not a fact.
The whole situation doesn't add up though. Why did they keep changing their stories? Why did the dogs tag the car, some clothing and parts of the apartment? Why did they spend their donations on holidays, ect? Why did they seem like they were lying in most of their interviews?

All I was saying, it is very suspicious and should of been a queue for further investigation, obviously I wouldn't try to convict them on what has been found so far, but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion.

You need to consider all the possibilities to see where the evidence leads, there is no evidence of an abduction, there is no evidence of her walking out the door and running away, there is very little evidence at all, and you are saying it is unreliable because humans > dogs... right.
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Birkenhead
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
I can't help but laugh at your naivety, no offence but it's people like you that passively allow paedophiles in places of power to continue with their systematic abuse of children.

(PS. It's always best to keep emotions out of studying crime cases.)
What on earth are you talking about? It isn't 'naive' to presume the parents are innocent until proven guilty of the murder of their daughter, or anyone else innocent of anything until proven guilty... this is Europe, not Belarus. I have yet to see any even remotely convincing evidence that they played a part beyond leaving her alone for a short while, the video above relies on beyond tenuous inferences from body language for Christ's sake
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DorianGrayism
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
Lol if you say so.



That's why its a hypothesis and not a fact.
The whole situation doesn't add up though. Why did they keep changing their stories? Why did the dogs tag the car, some clothing and parts of the apartment? Why did they spend their donations on holidays, ect? Why did they seem like they were lying in most of their interviews?

All I was saying, it is very suspicious and should of been a queue for further investigation, obviously I wouldn't try to convict them on what has been found so far, but that doesn't stop me from having an opinion.

You need to consider all the possibilities to see where the evidence leads, there is no evidence of an abduction, there is no evidence of her walking out the door and running away, there is very little evidence at all, and you are saying it is unreliable because humans > dogs... right.

Questions are not evidence.

Let's assume what you have written with regards to the evidence is true and accurate.

The Apartment was not a murder scene. Neither was there was any evidence of a "clean up".

There was no evidence that a murder took place with Madeline was wearing those clothes or that it had been subject to a recent clean.

The fact is that you have a Dog that says one thing and there is no corroborating evidence. Not even a shred.

That is why the other poster is left to bring up accusations of sociopathy and amateur videos on body language. No direct evidence. No circumstantial evidence. Just made up theories.
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Cremated_Spatula
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#84
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(Original post by Birkenhead)
What on earth are you talking about? It isn't 'naive' to presume the parents are innocent until proven guilty of the murder of their daughter, or anyone else innocent of anything until proven guilty... this is Europe, not Belarus. I have yet to see any even remotely convincing evidence that they played a part beyond leaving her alone for a short while, the video above relies on beyond tenuous inferences from body language for Christ's sake

Presuming and convicting are two very different things.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Questions are not evidence.

The Apartment was not a murder scene. Neither was there was any evidence of a "clean up".

There was no evidence that a murder took place with Madeline was wearing those clothes or that it had been subject to a recent clean.

The fact is that you have a Dog that says one thing and there is no corroborating evidence. Not even a shred.

That is why the other poster is left to bring up accusations of sociopathy and amateur videos on body language.
I never said they were evidence :facepalm: I was simply pointing out things to consider.

From my memory, forensics found nothing to conclude, nothing at all. Which in itself is crazy. Something had to have happened there, whether it be sign of breaking and entering or some kind of forensic trail.

Like I said, there is little evidence to conclude anything, it is still suspicious to me.
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Birkenhead
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Brubeckian)
The parents should be thrown in jail regardless if they murdered the child or not.

Case 1) The McCann's killed their daughter ---> It's their fault she died

Case 2) They left their 3 year old unattended, allowing someone to kidnap her, she's probably now dead --->It's the parents fault she died

No matter what happened the parents are to blame and they should be thrown in jail.
It's obviously not their fault she was murdered (if she was) - that lies with the murderer. I am not sure how responsible, if at all, the parents can be held to be for her disappearance having left her alone in their hotel room and dining 160 ft away for an hour and a half, especially since they checked on her throughout that time.
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Birkenhead
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#86
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(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
Presuming and convicting are two very different things.
Come again? What are you trying to say in response to my response to you? You called the bear 'naive' for presuming that the parents are innocent because they have not yet been found guilty, that is how we do things in a civilised justice system...I have also not seen any evidence at all that they can be implicated beyond the shaky morsel that they left her alone in the circumstances elaborated on above.
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Cremated_Spatula
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#87
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(Original post by Birkenhead)
Come again? What are you trying to say in response to my response to you? You called the bear 'naive' for presuming that the parents are innocent because they have not yet been found guilty, that is how we do things in a civilised justice system...I have also not seen any evidence at all that they can be implicated beyond the shaky morsel that they left her alone in the circumstances elaborated on above.
Presuming that they are innocent in spite of the suspicious situation is naive, yes, but you used 'INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY' as some kind of logical answer to my post.

There is no evidence to conclude anything. If morsels are all they had to investigate with, then morsels would of had to suffice.

(Original post by Birkenhead)
It's obviously not their fault she was murdered (if she was) - that lies with the murderer. I am not sure how responsible, if at all, the parents can be held to be for her disappearance having left her alone in their hotel room and dining 160 ft away for an hour and a half, especially since they checked on her throughout that time.
They should be held accountable for perverting the course of justice, changing their stories multiple times should not be allowed.
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kmcg97
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#88
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#88
I still think she died accidentally and her doctor parents knew exactly how to cover it up
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DorianGrayism
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#89
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(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)

I never said they were evidence :facepalm: I was simply pointing out things to consider.

From my memory, forensics found nothing to conclude, nothing at all. Which in itself is crazy. Something had to have happened there, whether it be sign of breaking and entering or some kind of forensic trail.

Like I said, there is little evidence to conclude anything, it is still suspicious to me.
Then don't bring it up.

If it isn't evidence then it is irrelevant.

Yes. Considering things that have little to no evidence. You still latch onto them when there is little supporting evidence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary
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n00
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#90
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(Original post by the bear)
for the record Sir Savile was never convicted of anything. There have been plenty of allegations of cover-ups in the media... nothing has come of them.
You mean it's all a conspiracy?
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DorianGrayism
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#91
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(Original post by kmcg97)
I still think she died accidentally and her doctor parents knew exactly how to cover it up
Yes, Medics are trained to know how to kill people without anyone finding out.
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Cremated_Spatula
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#92
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Then don't bring it up.

If it isn't evidence then it is irrelevant.

Yes. Considering things that have little to no evidence. You still latch onto them when there is little supporting evidence and overwhelming evidence to the contrary
How is evidence found? By asking questions; how is evidence disputed/debunked? By asking questions.

What overwhelming evidence to the contrary? I haven't seen any.

(Original post by n00)
You mean it's all a conspiracy?
No, it's just that it was too late to act on the case, since, he was dead. What was found, was a failure of the judicial system at that time.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Yes, Medics are trained to know how to kill people without anyone finding out.
Medics are not Doctors. That is all.
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Schwartznagger
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#93
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#93
Do children snatched typically die then? I thought they would be sold to people who couldn't have kids, or at worse be made sex slaves by paedophiles.
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pinkteddyx64
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#94
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#94
I'm amazed how TSR even allows any discussion of the Mcclans in the first place when forums like Digital Spy won't! :eek2:
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Birkenhead
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#95
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(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
Presuming that they are innocent in spite of the suspicious situation is naive, yes,
No, it isn't. It's perfectly sensible and the only way a justice system can remain fair and civilised. You are remarking that the situation is suspicious, and yet by your own admission there is 'no evidence to prosecute anyone of anything', nor is there any reason to believe that they had reason to get rid of their daughter - it is therefore insensible to do anything but conclude that they had no part in their daughter's disappearance.

but you used 'INNOCENT UNTIL FOUND GUILTY' as some kind of logical answer to my post.
It is logical, yes, as above. You called the bear 'naive' for taking this position, when it is you that is being irrational by rejecting this in the absence of any evidence or reason to support your suspicions.

If morsels are all they had to investigate with, then morsels would of had to suffice.
What exactly are you suggesting?
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Birkenhead
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#96
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(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
They should be held accountable for perverting the course of justice, changing their stories multiple times should not be allowed.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about and have deeply sinister intentions for how justice should be carried out.
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DorianGrayism
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#97
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(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
How is evidence found? By asking questions, How is evidence disputed/debunked? By asking questions.
No. I am not finding evidence. I am presenting it.

I don't care about your questions. Just present the evidence.

(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)
What overwhelming evidence to the contrary? I haven't seen any.
The fact you are choosing to ignore what I have written just illustrates your deep bias.

There is no evidence that a murder took place in the apartment. No DNA. No evidence of a struggle. No evidence of a clean up. No witness statements.

There is nothing to corroborate The Dog's findings.
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DorianGrayism
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Cremated_Spatula)

Medics are not Doctors. That is all.
Fine. Doctors are Trained how to kill people without anyone finding out.:rolleyes:
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Cremated_Spatula
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Birkenhead)
No, it isn't. It's perfectly sensible and the only way a justice system can remain fair and civilised. You are remarking that the situation is suspicious, and yet by your own admission there is 'no evidence to prosecute anyone of anything', nor is there any reason to believe that they had reason to get rid of their daughter - it is therefore insensible to do anything but conclude that they had no part in their daughter's disappearance.



It is logical, yes, as above. You called the bear 'naive' for taking this position, when it is you that is being irrational by rejecting this in the absence of any evidence or reason to support your suspicions.



What exactly are you suggesting?

I'm not assuming anything, I'm being devils advocate, you two are refusing the possibility of them being involved, despite them being a suspect at one point.

I didn't have any suspicions before the appearance of certain pieces of evidence, but suspicions are less than a presumption.

It is irrational and naive to ignore evidence and then count the lack of evidence as a sign of innocence (or guilt).

(Original post by Birkenhead)
You clearly don't know what you're talking about and have deeply sinister intentions for how justice should be carried out.
You clearly do not know a single thing about this case. And you are getting way too emotional about it.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
No. I am not finding evidence. I am presenting it.

I don't care about your questions. Just present the evidence.



The fact you are choosing to ignore what I have written just illustrates your deep bias.

There is no evidence that a murder took place in the apartment. No DNA. No evidence of a struggle. No evidence of a clean up. No witness statements.

There is nothing to corroborate The Dog's findings.
The lack of supporting evidence is not evidence to the contrary. I haven't ignored anything, you haven't posted any evidence at all, in favour of any conclusion.
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leinad2012
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#100
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#100
(Original post by Eva.Gregoria)
I hope she's alive but find it sad that a single girl has gotten so much coverage when thousands more are just given up on and forgotten.
Really? I don't, being completely honest here if she is alive can you imagine what she'll have been through over the last 10 or so years (or however long its been since she was abducted)?
There isn't really any other reason to kidnap a 3 year old especially who's from a rich country (because let's be honest it'd be much easier to kidnap an orphan or kid from Africa if you were selling them on for profit, there's be virtually no press at all in those situations). Then there's also the fact that she had distinct features (a pigment in her eye) which would make her easy to identify too.

I wouldn't wish what would probably have happened to her if she was still alive on my worst enemy.

And then there's the issue that if, by some miracle, she is alive and has been living with a "normal" family, is it right to take her from who she believes to be her parents and give her to some strangers (her actual parents) who have a history of poor parenting?
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