A Levels PLUS IB - UCAS scoring system question

If you are considering "top" universities, most of them don't make offers based on UCAS points anyway. They would potentially be able to make an unconditional offer on the A-levels (if they are high enough).

What degree/uni is your dc aiming for?

Reply 2

goodies

Don't worry about UCAS points unless you're applying to a bad uni.

Reply 3

Thanks for the replies.

No specific idea on university yet, it's way too early and he may not go to university at all if the RAF will take him on as an officer trainee and he can graduate through the RAF.

But was reading in the news this week about the various UCAS points needed for the top universities (I believe Cam and Ox were the most demanding followed by the big London unis).

Reply 4

Original post by MisterLK

Applicants have lots of UCAS points, but those universities don't make offers on points. Oxbridge (and most top unis) only offer on A-level grades or IB points (or equivalent). Cambridge typical offer is A*AA for humanities, and A*A*A for sciences. Oxford is AAA upwards. But many students will achieve even higher marks (e.g. 3, 4 or even 5 A-levels at A* plus AS and other qualifications) and therefore appear to have lots of UCAS points. Getting 600+ UCAS points or whatever is never a requirement for Oxbridge per se.

If he's doing GCSE 2 years early it's not too early to think about which degree/uni, as it will help inform his A-level choices.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 5

I think unis tend to look at how many exams were sat at the same time or within a certain time frame. Often "top" unis like A levels (A2) to be sat within a 2 year period so if your son completes 3 A levels to a very high standard (A or A*) within that time frame he might get an unconditional if he waits to apply for uni when he's a bit older. If those 3 A levels are spread out over say 3 years or more then it gets a bit more complicated and some unis won't mind but others will. If the A levels are spread out or few in number then the unis will probably take more note of the IB if he's doing it later

Every candidate is a different case and will be judged on their merits however :smile:

Is he looking primarily at maths and science degrees or humanities? If more maths based it is advisable to keep up study/work during any "gap" years as these skills get rusty quite fast and some courses at some unis prefer their candidates not to have taken a break.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 6

But many students will achieve even higher marks (e.g. 3, 4 or even 5 A-levels at A* plus AS and other qualifications)

Thanks jnell. That gave me an idea: Maybe he can do 5-6 A levels but spread them out over 3 years and then take a year off to do something else (I don't know what yet).

But then I saw Folion's post:

If those 3 A levels are spread out over say 3 years or more then it gets a bit more complicated

Argh!

To answer your question about subject of study at uni, I don't know yet. He's 12. But I guess it's more likely to be maths/science/IT related than humanities or arts.

Reply 7

Original post by MisterLK

Thanks for the very helpful replies. OK, I'm clear now on the fact that it's the A*s at A level and not UCAS points that's key to the most competitive universities.

It does seem a bit early to be planning - he's in year 8 and doing some GCSEs next month and others next year. But I guess it's better to think about these things early than late.

Thanks jnell. That gave me an idea: Maybe he can do 5-6 A levels but spread them out over 3 years and then take a year off to do something else (I don't know what yet).

But then I saw Folion's post:

Argh! :frown:

To answer your question about subject of study at uni, I don't know yet. He's 12. But I guess it's more likely to be maths/science/IT related than humanities or arts.

So the question we are all thinking but not asking... Why are you planning on him doing any of this so early? Are you home schooling?

Reply 8

The school feel he's A* ready for maths and computing and, as he was keen to do them, the school agreed (with our permission).

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 9

Original post by MisterLK

The school feel he's A* ready for maths and computing and, as he was keen to do them, the school agreed (with our permission).

It's fantastic he's so talented and I do feel that students should be given work that is ability appropriate but I do sometimes wonder why schools encourage people to sit exams that much early well actually maybe a little for their (the school's) own glory.

Personally I'd rather see very able students expanded outwards in their subjects rather than upwards by doing exams early. Maybe it is just easier for the schools to use standard exam curricula than find other challenging material for such students.

As you've rightly identified it could be problematic finding things to do post A level and pre university unless early entry into uni is a possibility. Many unis like to see what students can do all in one sitting as this can help when comparing different candidates. If all candidates have approximately the same workload at GCSE and then A level then it becomes easier to rank them and see who can deal with workload stress.

It's very important to keep the momentum going in subjects like maths. My younger son sat his GCSE a year early and then had to do some kind of extended alternative GCSE to keep ticking over pre A level. He is now studying engineering at uni which he entered straight after A levels and there are some in his uni cohort who took a gap year who had a few issues getting back up to speed with maths and physics.

If your son looks like wanting to pursue maths/science/IT especially you need to pin the school down and ask them what they propose giving him to fill the time after his GCSEs.

You are right to be very proud and, yes , it is always good to check out what is coming ahead.

Reply 10

You are right to be very proud...

Sorry if I've given the wrong impression. I write purely to enquire about how to plan for his future. As an ex-teacher I've come across many children with his level of ability, so he's nothing special :wink:

except that he's got tenacity at plugging away independently with self-study in that which interests him (and, to be fair, to some extent even other subjects).

...you need to pin the school down and ask them what they propose giving him...

We will be having a chat. The problem is, and I don't know if this is a problem, they're most cooperative and will probably be willing to play it however we want. So far we requested that they keep him studying maths so they're letting him take Further Maths and Stats next year (at the end of year 9) together with other subjects... and it ends there. They don't have a sixth form.

Personally I'd rather see very able students expanded outwards in their subjects

Since he's excused from maths classes, and IT, and several others, he does extra PE and stuff. I can't fault the school. They're not into doing things for their own glory.

Anyway, getting back to my core question... If he studies privately for a couple of A levels while in Y10 and Y11 and then some more A levels with his cohort, it would seem the larger number of A levels won't necessarily give him any major advantage for university admissions? So any other suggestions are welcome. (I wouldn't prefer early entry to uni). I wouldn't mind a gap year if that won't negatively impact on university chances.

I hear what you say about losing touch with the subject, and I accept it's true, but I'm not concerned about this. If and when he needs to catch up he'll put in the effort necessary particularly if he's out of touch for just a year.

Reply 11

There's also Maths Olympiads and other competitions to test his metal as he progresses. And when he's doing Maths & FM A-Level he should also start to look at STEP (Sixth Term Entrance Papers) which is a requirement for Maths (and sometimes Engineering and even Economics) at Cambridge and others. STEP uses the A-level syllabus but requires students to be much more creative in their approach.

http://www.admissionstestingservice.org/for-test-takers/step/about-step/

Maybe entry just one year early to uni would be ok - especially at Oxbridge - and some Cambridge colleges don't mind candidates taking a gap year (notably Queens'), but others do (notably Trinity).

http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/guide.pdf

Reply 12

Original post by MisterLK

except that he's got tenacity at plugging away independently with self-study in that which interests him (and, to be fair, to some extent even other subjects).

We will be having a chat. The problem is, and I don't know if this is a problem, they're most cooperative and will probably be willing to play it however we want. So far we requested that they keep him studying maths so they're letting him take Further Maths and Stats next year (at the end of year 9) together with other subjects... and it ends there. They don't have a sixth form.

Since he's excused from maths classes, and IT, and several others, he does extra PE and stuff. I can't fault the school. They're not into doing things for their own glory.

Anyway, getting back to my core question... If he studies privately for a couple of A levels while in Y10 and Y11 and then some more A levels with his cohort, it would seem the larger number of A levels won't necessarily give him any major advantage for university admissions? So any other suggestions are welcome. (I wouldn't prefer early entry to uni). I wouldn't mind a gap year if that won't negatively impact on university chances.

I hear what you say about losing touch with the subject, and I accept it's true, but I'm not concerned about this. If and when he needs to catch up he'll put in the effort necessary particularly if he's out of touch for just a year.

It would possibly keep things more straightforward if he did his favoured and/or best subjects for just prior to uni grouped. For example if he wanted to be an engineer do something like maths, further maths and physics all at one sitting. Maybe do some other subjects a bit early, how about languages, computing or design technology?

If he took his favoured subjects later then he would more likely get the very high UMS desired by top unis. Everyone is an individual but I just think following the standard route might be less problematic in the long run. Not an expert in this by any means but it would just be a shame to complicate the chances of somebody who is very able.

Reply 13

jneil, thanks for the tip about STEP. I've checked it out and it's definitely one thing he could be working towards closer to the time.

The pdf was useful too. The "discrimination" against those who've taken a gap year seems to apply to those who've deferred university entrance and I'm not sure if it'll apply to those who are starting at the same age as everyone else. Also, if the gap year is prior to the end of A levels, and not subsequent to it, there seems to be no fallout. I need to investigate this, but thanks for the leads.

Folion, I've had a word with him and we may go down the route of studying for a Maths and Computing/CS A level while "in school", together with some extra GCSE subjects, but not taking the A level exams. Instead he could take those papers along with the ones he studies in college ... when the gets there at the usual age. This would be a choice from design tech (which he quite likes), further maths, music, physics and chemistry type subjects.

Astronomy/astrophysics is available to AS level and, sadly, may not even be available when he gets there. We're considering whether he should/can go for that AS level now, since he's so keen on the subject, even though it may not make a difference to any university application. No harm in learning something just for the fun of it.

That seems to be the best option based on all the new info I've processed from your posts and the research they led me to do. Many thanks to both of you for your time.

Reply 14

seaholme

Just to say, if your son is definitely set on a more mathematical direction, it might not make much sense for him to do the IB. I don't know how much you've thought about it, but in my opinion if you know what you want to do then the IB is not a useful route to go down.

Reply 15

He's very clear in what he wants to do - he wants to fly fighter planes.

Last year he was very clear that he wanted to be a Formula One champion. :wink:

Reply 16

Original post by MisterLK

He's very clear in what he wants to do - he wants to fly fighter planes.

Last year he was very clear that he wanted to be a Formula One champion. :wink:

Re the gap year - I'd strongly recommend contacting a couple of Cambridge colleges' admission's departments just to check your particular situation. They are used to "unusual" scenarios and will be happy to give advice.

Reply 17

parentlurker

If you child wants to aim at Oxbridge I would be very wary of accelerated GSCEs and extra A levels. If he decided to go for Oxford they place a lot of weight on GSCEs. Cambridge have given more weight to AS grades but with the changes to the way A levels are taken they may also have to put more weight on GSCE grades. There is plenty of academic research showing that those who sit GCSE early do not do as well as those who take the exam later and he wants a good crop of A* grades. He should do maths challenge. Take a look here http://nrich.maths.org/5716

If he is likely to want to do sciences then he should focus on Cambridge. Look at the maths outreach pages here http://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/about/community/ You should also consider if he would be eligible for the shadowing scheme http://www.applytocambridge.com/shadowing/

Cambridge might take a young mathematician e.g http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/jan/07/cambridge-university-14-arran-fernandez but this is not always a good idea. see e.g. http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/202108/What-happened-to-the-prodigies

6 or 7 A levels does not guarantee an Oxbridge place http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2395440/A-Level-results-Student-7-A-s-heads-Stanford-REJECTED-Oxford-University.html and may even put admission staff off

Cambridge has a flying club http://cambridgeaeroclub.com/ but if you wish to encourage his current ambition (or just to test if it would suit him) then look at air cadets http://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/

Finally I would say that IB is perceived to have tougher offers than A levels at British universities, although perhaps with more leniency over missed offers. I would think 4 (or 5 if including further maths) A levels no more than a year early and gap year with open university maths, computing or engineering courses if considering maths.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 18

Interesting lot of information there. I'm very grateful.

It's only those subjects where the school (and I) are in no doubt of an A* that he'll be taking exams early. I'm definitely not into early for the sake of early. And certainly not when it comes to university admission. The age gap can be a big problem. Already he's got 16 year old girls from Y11 asking him to the proms! (And he can't go of course because he's 12).

Nor can he play CoD or have a Facebook account like the other Y11 pupils.

I've had sites like nRich, tes and others bookmarked for many years now though he's never been for any maths competitions ... I don't like the idea of these competitions and the pressure it puts on kids. I'd like him to just enjoy learning rather than feel he needs to beat somebody else. That's why he knows so much of maths and IT that's completely outside the GCSE syllabus.

It can sometimes be frustrating - both the Cambridge Outreach programme you link to and the shadowing say, effectively, don't bother applying if you're not in Year 12. :frown:

But I suppose I can bookmark them for use in the future.

Re. 6 or 7 A levels putting applicants at a disadvantage - I've read the article and I can't seem to find any reference to this. It appears that studying the perceived "easy subjects" could be detrimental to one's chances, but not the actual number of A levels (performance at interview etc., being a constant). Would be interested in your thoughts.

He's already on the waiting list for Air Cadets (he needs to clear the 13th b/day first). :wink:

Reply 19